Hagler v Leonard Thoughts?

[talkingJocstrap]

Originally Posted by ETM

He probably was ready to retire. He didnt know what Leonard was gonna do because he had been teased before by Ray in`84. He always wanted a shot at Leonard because of the $ and because Ray was a nemisis who he felt had an easy road compared to him.

If he didnt want Ray so bad why would he make so many concessions when he was the Champion?

I still dont understand why, if Ray was such a risktaker like you said, didnt he just go after Marvin then? I think waiting for Hagler to get to the point where physically he had to retire, says otherwise, that he was taking the path of least resistance

In fact, all the concessions Ray was asking for confirms it

Hagler only took the fight because he couldnt turn down the money (would YOU?)

But no, I don't believe marvin was really interested in Leonard just for the sake of proving himself. Hagler had already beaten the bigger game

[Bummy Davis]

Angelo Dundee strikes again...this was a close fight but Angelo having Leonard flurry at the end of rounds and shoe-shine flurries with a little sparkle while Marvin the true Blue color workman was all meat and potatoes...another fight that I thought Mavin would hit a home-run but paid for everyone's expectations....but he allowed it to be close and should have pulled out ahead by a neck and not a nose

[Robbi]

Hagler must realise, even now, that a challenger can win a close decision. Holmes is another who needs to realise this too.

[ETM]

Originally Posted by talkingJocstrap

I still dont understand why, if Ray was such a risktaker like you said, didnt he just go after Marvin then?

See Post #74

[lora]

Originally Posted by talkingJocstrap

I still dont understand why, if Ray was such a risktaker like you said, didnt he just go after Marvin then? I think waiting for Hagler to get to the point where physically he had to retire, says otherwise, that he was taking the path of least resistance

In fact, all the concessions Ray was asking for confirms it

Hagler only took the fight because he couldnt turn down the money (would YOU?)

But no, I don't believe marvin was really interested in Leonard just for the sake of proving himself. Hagler had already beaten the bigger game

So physically feeble and infirm he was still considered the best middle in the world and rated amongst the best P4P.

hagler was in decline, but he may well still have had a good 2 or 3 years left in him as a good middle and he was certainly still very good when he fought Ray.

taking the path of least resistance came after the HAgler bout for Leonard.When he decided to use his status to pick and choose the supposed easy options and retire\return at will instead of just defending his middleweight title.

[talkingJocstrap]

Originally Posted by ETM

Post #74

Okay so he had a detatched retina. but after his first comeback, I want to know why he didnt just challnge Hagler from there? WHy make a comeback then immediately re-retire? that isnt the characteristic of a guy who take chances. A guy who takes chances would have said to Marvin "let's go, I'm ready for you now", not three years later when he's about to retire

all this other stuff about mixed emotions, drugs just doesnt do the trick. I believe he feared getting knocked out by marvin and took a fight with the worst possible version he could get

[ETM]

Originally Posted by talkingJocstrap

Okay so he had a detatched retina. but after his first comeback, I want to know why he didnt just challnge Hagler from there? WHy make a comeback then immediately re-retire? that isnt the characteristic of a guy who take chances. A guy who takes chances would have said to Marvin "let's go, I'm ready for you now", not three years later when he's about to retire

all this other stuff about mixed emotions, drugs just doesnt do the trick. I believe he feared getting knocked out by marvin and took a fight with the worst possible version he could get

I dont think coming out of retirement after a 3 year layoff, moving up 12lbs on the scales to fight an alltime great middleweight was the path of least resistance. That could be revisionist history.

Hagler was still fighting great and was a huge favorite. Nobody at that time thought it was a safe fight for Leonard. Many thought he would get destroyed.

If Hagler had been 36 years old and Leonard 25 I could see your point better but neither were spring chickens. What Ray did shocked the world.

As far as your question as to why they didnt fight in `82 or `84. I dont know. I cant answer that question. I never had a detached retina.

[MAG1965]

my thought is that Hagler for all the complaining he did after, did not do enough in the fight and came out and lost the first two rounds by fighting righty. Had he come out lefty he could have changed the whole outcome of the fight and also won those extra two rounds.

[talkingJocstrap]

Originally Posted by ETM

I dont think coming out of retirement after a 3 year layoff, moving up 12lbs on the scales to fight an alltime great middleweight was the path of least resistance. That could be revisionist history.

Hagler was still fighting great and was a huge favorite. Nobody at that time thought it was a safe fight for Leonard. Many thought he would get destroyed.

If Hagler had been 36 years old and Leonard 25 I could see your point better but neither were spring chickens. What Ray did shocked the world.

As far as your question as to why they didnt fight in `82 or `84. I dont know. I cant answer that question. I never had a detached retina.

That doesnt explain why he didnt go after him during his first comeback.

He was already at 154. all he needed to do was add ONE more pound and say "Okay Marvin here I am, I'm all yours" . Your explanation is simply not persuasive enough "Hagler was fighting great. Many thought he would get destroyed"

SInce he was already in action you cant say that his retina was the reason for his second retirement, only his first

I like ray. he had tons of talent and impressive wins but his refusal to fight really raised eyebrows as did his second comeback and I for one dont believe he had the nerve to fight Marvin unless he felt his ability to perform was greatly compromised and that's what it looked like to me that night

[Longhhorn71]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

my thought is that Hagler for all the complaining he did after, did not do enough in the fight and came out and lost the first two rounds by fighting righty. Had he come out lefty he could have changed the whole outcome of the fight and also won those extra two rounds.

Hagler knows he screwed up....and its bothered him ever since.

The SRL fight should have been easy pickings for Hagler.

Can you imagine Monzon just fking around with Leonard like that?

Monzon would have TKO'ed that version of Leonard in 9 rds with Dundee stopping the fight.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by Longhhorn71

Hagler knows he screwed up....and its bothered him ever since.

The SRL fight should have been easy pickings for Hagler.

Can you imagine Monzon just fking around with Leonard like that?

Monzon would have TKO'ed that version of Leonard in 9 rds with Dundee stopping the fight.

Hagler did best when he thought the guy in front of him was a guy who could beat him. When he fought Duran he also sort of thought he would win easily, then when Duran hung in there and fought a counterpunching fight he had a hard time regrouping. With Leonard he thought it would be another easy fight because of the layoff and took it easy. Against Hearns he came in fired up and with a great gameplan since he knew to beat Hearns you have to take his punch and land. Had he gone into the fight with Leonard with the thought this was the prime Leonard, he might have done ok in 1987. Now had Ray been prime I think he beats Hagler since was always quicker than Marvin. I always thought Ray won that fight. Marvin also didn't fight great that night. He looked rusty and slow and he could not land clean on Ray. One thing is I do not think he could fight with the motivation he did with Hearns everytime out. That would have burned him out. I think that kind of effort is a one in a lifetime fight. Hearns never fought like that again either. I actually think the Hearns fight burned Hagler out a lot, and with Mugabi he had not fought in one year since Hearns. Hearns was never the same either after Hagler, becoming more sloppy and he seemed to have worse balance after that fight. Don't know why that happened, but it did. His balance seemed to be more erractic in the fights after Hagler.

Now as for Hagler - after Mugabi which Hagler was inactive for one year because of a broken nose in sparring,, Hagler was inactive another year. He had thought he might want to retire, and then Ray does that Maryland station interview.That was unheard of for Hagler to be that inactive. He never was the same since Hearns, since the Hearns fight was the last fight he was active and motivated both.

[talkingJocstrap]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

Hagler did best when he thought the guy in front of him was a guy who could beat him. When he fought Duran he also sort of thought he would win easily, then when Duran hung in there and fought a counterpunching fight he had a hard time regrouping. With Leonard he thought it would be another easy fight because of the layoff and took it easy. Against Hearns he came in fired up and with a great gameplan since he knew to beat Hearns you have to take his punch and land. Had he gone into the fight with Leonard with the thought this was the prime Leonard, he might have done ok in 1987. Now had Ray been prime I think he beats Hagler since was always quicker than Marvin. I always thought Ray won that fight. Marvin also didn't fight great that night. He looked rusty and slow and he could not land clean on Ray. One thing is I do not think he could fight with the motivation he did with Hearns everytime out. That would have burned him out. I think that kind of effort is a one in a lifetime fight. Hearns never fought like that again either. I actually think the Hearns fight burned Hagler out a lot, and with Mugabi he had not fought in one year since Hearns. Hearns was never the same either after Hagler, becoming more sloppy and he seemed to have worse balance after that fight. Don't know why that happened, but it did. His balance seemed to be more erractic in the fights after Hagler.

what about Vito? What about Roldan? The way I remembered it, Hagler got a draw with Vito pressing him throughout the fight

Harvin just barely got by Roldan with the help of a closed eye

also, Hagleer forced the fight with Hearns and I thought did extremely well

It also seems strange to me that you would write prime Leonard would defeat Hagler. How could you even think it? He had his chance the month following the Hearns fight doing commentary saying how he wanted a piece of Marvin but he never put his money where his mouth was. He had plenty of chances, both with, and without the excuse of his eye.

I really think you ought to go back and rethink parts of your post as much of it is just rehashed hearsay

[lufcrazy]

Certainly one of the greatest victories in sporting history.

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by talkingJocstrap

what about Vito? What about Roldan? The way I remembered it, Hagler got a draw with Vito pressing him throughout the fight

Harvin just barely got by Roldan with the help of a closed eye

also, Hagleer forced the fight with Hearns and I thought did extremely well

It also seems strange to me that you would write prime Leonard would defeat Hagler. How could you even think it? He had his chance the month following the Hearns fight doing commentary saying how he wanted a piece of Marvin but he never put his money where his mouth was. He had plenty of chances, both with, and without the excuse of his eye.

I really think you ought to go back and rethink parts of your post as much of it is just rehashed hearsay

Oh oh, looks like Magi couldnt answer the question.

What ABOUT Roldan N Antuofuermo?

They didnt exactly fit the mold did they?

These people only notice names of boxers who will fit into their nice neat theory "Marvin needed the opponent to come to him"

all you have to do is look at the Hearns fight to know they're full of hot air

Dont listen to them. What they know is all hearsay

and dont buy none of that crap from ETM "what he did was a gusty move"

It was anything BUT gutsy, nearly tripping over his own two feet to catch a guy on the way out before he could retire.

I think a gusty move would have been to bypass lalonde (who wasnt in his division anyways) and defend the middleweight title against top contenders

But I guess speedy agile up N comers just leave a bad taste in some people's mouths

BTW, just why did leonard agree to fight Lalonde? I though he had a detached retina that prevented him from fighting?

[Clinton]

Originally Posted by redrooster

Oh oh, looks like Magi couldnt answer the question.

What ABOUT Roldan N Antuofuermo?

They didnt exactly fit the mold did they?

These people only notice names of boxers who will fit into their nice neat theory "Marvin needed the opponent to come to him"

all you have to do is look at the Hearns fight to know they're full of hot air

Dont listen to them. What they know is all hearsay

and dont buy none of that crap from ETM "what he did was a gusty move"

It was anything BUT gutsy, nearly tripping over his own two feet to catch a guy on the way out before he could retire.

I think a gusty move would have been to bypass lalonde (who wasnt in his division anyways) and defend the middleweight title against top contenders

But I guess speedy agile up N comers just leave a bad taste in some people's mouths

BTW, just why did leonard agree to fight Lalonde? I though he had a detached retina that prevented him from fighting?