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Old 03-25-2012, 02:29 AM   #31
Longhhorn71
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Liston got of piece of Clay's future fights if Sonny lost the title.

The Dundee boy's had the Miami "connections".
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Old 03-25-2012, 05:10 AM   #32
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71 View Post
Liston got of piece of Clay's future fights if Sonny lost the title.

The Dundee boy's had the Miami "connections".
U mean that Liston got a percentage of Ali's income if he agreed 2 lose d title , which he did ?
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:26 AM   #33
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Ring Magazine,

Stated that the Louisville Sponsoring Group was brilliant in their decision making
in guiding the young prodigy Cassius Clay.

But they did propose a challenge to the group in 1964, by stating that Cassius Clay has yet to fight;
Ingemar Johansson, Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell, Eddie Machen and Cleveland Williams.

And his victories over #2 Doug Jones and #9 Henry Cooper were heavily disputed.

And Ring Magazone also stated, that Clay's victory over Sonny Liston was the best thing that
could happen to boxing.

Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 03-25-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:16 AM   #34
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab View Post
"The people who picked Ali's opponents during his career did a masterful job. Sometimes they had to bite the bullet and go after a Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, or George Foreman. But apart from that, they generally chose fighters who were too old or too slow and never at their peak. Occasionally, they made a mistake. Doug Jones was a mistake. And of course, when Ali got old, any fight was dangerous."

EDDIE FUTCH, quoted in Thomas Hauser's "Muhammad Ali:His Life And Times"


What's especially ironic is that his implication applies more to Joe Frazier than it does Ali.
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:15 PM   #35
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

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Originally Posted by Goyourownway View Post
What's especially ironic is that his implication applies more to Joe Frazier than it does Ali.
True.
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:20 PM   #36
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Bokaj,,,,

You know that sparring session with Ingemar Johansson was part
of a publicity photo session.

It was 100% staged for the local television stations.

The 'staged' sparring session took place in Miami Beach, a couple of days before a young Cassius Clay
was to fight Donnie Fleeman at the Auditorium (Tuesday, February 21, 1961).

Ingo also sparred with undefeated Miami Beach Light-heavyweight Otha Brown, in another
staged sparrring session.

The 'stock footage' was distributed to the local Television Stations to help stir up interest in the fight.
It was nothing more than a 'promotional tool'.

A few weeks later (March 13, 1961) Ingo took on Floyd Patterson at Convention Hall for the Heavyweight
Championship, in their 3rd bout together.
Seems like you and me have had this discussion before. I do think I know you.
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:46 PM   #37
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
Seems like you and me have had this discussion before. I do think I know you.
The Bokaj Man,,,,,,,,,,you're back,,,,

Otha Brown looked good in the ring versus Ingo too...

Completely staged publicity shoot.
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Old 03-25-2012, 03:32 PM   #38
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Does anyone know just how involved Dundee was with matching Clay under the Louisville group? I always got the impression that he was very involved then but less so under Herbert Muhammed.
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Old 03-25-2012, 03:33 PM   #39
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
The Bokaj Man,,,,,,,,,,you're back,,,,
Yeah, haven't been here much as of late. Definitely thought I was all talked out regarding Clay/Ali, but here I am again...
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

edit

Last edited by John Galt; 03-27-2014 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:29 PM   #41
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

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Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
Does anyone know just how involved Dundee was with matching Clay under the Louisville group? I always got the impression that he was very involved then but less so under Herbert Muhammed.
William Faversham Jr. ran everything.

Angelo Dundee had no say in any fight promotions and/or who Cassius
Clay would fight.

Mr. Dundee was a paid employee of the Louisville Sponsoring Group.

In 1963, it was $125 per week, plus expenses.
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Old 03-25-2012, 05:06 PM   #42
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
I was studying his early career lately and noticed how well protected he was, for his own good on the way up. Ali's management all he way up to liston guided his pro career perfectly, throwing him in against good but not dangerous world class fighters that could potentially upset him. They wanted to bring up young Clay up systematically, They wanted to test his incredible talent vs good fighters but not risk him getting beat or becoming damaged goods. So they threw him in against good lowly ranked contenders, but guys that they kn ew Ali would beat and improve Guys like 6'4 Billy Daniels, 6'4 212lb Alejandro Lavorante, Alex Miteff, Sonny Banks, 152 year old Archie moore were all ranked good fighters and all presented a new stylistica matchup for him, but his management knew no matter they didnt threaten to beat him and Ali would get valuable experience fighting these guys before they threw him in vs Red Meat. The best fighter Ali probably beat pre title was 45 year old Archie Moore who was ranked high and still a dangerous puncher, but they knew Alis speed youthness would be way too much for Archie at his advanced age. when they threw Ali in his first against a top notch young boxer, Ali struggled valiently against jones but gained valuable experience. They were also smart that when Ali suffered his first real punchers test, when he got clocked by a henry cooper left hook, it was henry cooper in ther and not a cleveland williams. So Ali could always dance his way out of there if he got in major trouble. They wanted Ali to gain valuable experience fighting good but not world class fighters, so that as ali continued to mature he would be ready to handle those world class styles when the time was right. Dundee was smart turning down offers from harold johnson and eddie machen.

With Cassius prolific amataur career they could have easily thrown hi against the wolves early. I think had they tried to take on the world class fighters in the early 1960s like harold johnson, machen, folley, williams, johannson, Terell, he would have beat alot of these guys, but he might have been upset 1 or 2 times and certainly been damaged goods early in his career.
Doug Jones was far superior to Archie Moore.
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Old 03-25-2012, 06:29 PM   #43
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

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Doug Jones was far superior to Archie Moore.
Without a doubt, Doug Jones was miles ahead in talent over
Old Man Archie Moore in 1962/1963.

No disrespect to Archie, but he was not in Doug Jones league at that
time.

Archie was still cagey, and could punch a little,,,,,,,,,,but he was also very slow.
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Old 03-25-2012, 06:46 PM   #44
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

Ali was guided immaculately, but never protected.

His resume, the greatest in heavyweight history, is a testament to that.

Ali went to boxing school for about 20 fights, and emerged ready to be a dominant champion. This is the desired result with any prospect.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:05 AM   #45
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Default Re: Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

I got a feeling that even prime vs prime Doug Jones could at least outdo Harold Johnson vs Archie Wright .
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