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Old 02-15-2008, 02:30 AM   #46
fists of fury
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Interesting observations Magoo. It takes guts to start questioning the validity of the fight, I'll say that.

I don't know about a fix though. For one thing, both Ali and Foreman received their fair share of punches during the fight. Could George, a terrific hitter, be sure that one of those blows didn't end proceedings for Ali?

To me the knockout looks legitimate. I would imagine any fixed fight would involve a knockout that looks more like a "knockout", with the victim flat on his back or face, not making any effort to get up.
Besides, I'd imagine enacting a knockout sequence that looks believable for the millions watching isn't as easy as it sounds.

Nonetheless, your observations have been interesting to read.
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Old 02-15-2008, 03:54 AM   #47
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

An air-conditioned Foreman still gets clubbed.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:22 AM   #48
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

If Ali-Foreman being fixed is plausible, then Ali-Bugner is even more plausible.

The fight took place in Malaysia, the largest muslim population in the world, they didn't invite Ali and Bugner over to see Ali get beat. Bugner didn't seem to make any real effort to win the fight, despite the fact that he had done better against a younger Ali a couple of years earlier, and he had physical advantages over Ali. Bugner was seen drinking champagne and swimming in the hotel pool with a big smile on his face straight after the fight.

Obviously, the two Liston fights were fixed, and Magoo's observations about Foreman-Ali on this thread cannot fail to convince that it was probably fixed, and the Bugner fight must have been fixed, IMO. And Norton 3 and Young were pre-determined GIFT decisions ie. FIXED. Doug Jones fight was a gift, Ali was "helped" by the split glove shennanigans against Cooper. And the referee in Frazier 2 was crooked, he probably had money on Ali to win on points .
It's becoming clear that Ali was the biggest fraud and beneficiary of fight fixing since Primo Carnera !!!
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:47 AM   #49
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
If Ali-Foreman being fixed is plausible, then Ali-Bugner is even more plausible.

The fight took place in Malaysia, the largest muslim population in the world, they didn't invite Ali and Bugner over to see Ali get beat. Bugner didn't seem to make any real effort to win the fight, despite the fact that he had done better against a younger Ali a couple of years earlier, and he had physical advantages over Ali. Bugner was seen drinking champagne and swimming in the hotel pool with a big smile on his face straight after the fight.

Obviously, the two Liston fights were fixed, and Magoo's observations about Foreman-Ali on this thread cannot fail to convince that it was probably fixed, and the Bugner fight must have been fixed, IMO. And Norton 3 and Young were pre-determined GIFT decisions ie. FIXED. Doug Jones fight was a gift, Ali was "helped" by the split glove shennanigans against Cooper. And the referee in Frazier 2 was crooked, he probably had money on Ali to win on points .
It's becoming clear that Ali was the biggest fraud and beneficiary of fight fixing since Primo Carnera !!!

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Old 02-15-2008, 05:49 AM   #50
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

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Ali was the most "fixed" champ in history
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Old 02-15-2008, 08:52 AM   #51
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Very well then, since you were kind enough to read my post and pay my opinions respect, than I'll share my thoughts. Though one of the reasons why I was going to chat with Mendoza privately, is because I don't want people to attack me for forming conspiracy theories over one of Muhammad Ali's greatest victories ever, but here goes.

I have always given Ali tremendous credit and respect for his victory over George Foreman. He was a 3-1 underdog facing impossible odds, and perhaps even having his physical health permanantely damaged. Foreman seemed to have tired around the 6th or 7th round, and by the 8th, appeared to be a thorughly exhausted fighter. Or was he?

There were some fairly touchy political overtones circulating around this fight, but not in America. This was not an issue of black vs white, rich vs poor, or the humble vs the flamboyant. This rather, was a situation in which nearly the entire country of Zaire was welcoming only one of its guests, while showing far less hospitality to the other. For months prior to the fight, Zaire citizens were running through the streets chanting " Ali bumaya" Meaning - Ali Kill him! This was a third world country who's majority of citizens were partial to Ali. I don't know much about the Zaire population or demographics in 1974, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear if there was a muslim segment of the populus. Not to jump to conclusions here, but I've often wondered if Foreman's safety was a concern that had crossed both George's mind, and the people who surrounded him.

This was one of the first real big superfights that Don King had ever promoted. He had already promoted a few others, but this was probably his biggest production thus far. Muhammad Ali was the first fighter that King used to infiltrate the world of promoting, and understood fully that although he was aging, Ali still held a great deal of public appeal. Note, following the Foreman fight, George never received a rematch, and many of Ali's bouts were against contender's who's credibility was questionable, Evangelista, Coopman, Spinks, etc. Of course he did fight Lyle, Shavers, Norton and Frazier, but there was plenty of padding in between. I wonder if Don King wanted to protect his investment, and to make a long story short, arranged for Foreman to take a dive, with perhaps the promise that he might get another opportunity at some point in the future.

When we watch this fight on film, it would almost appear, that after staggering around the ring, George is looking for a place to fall before actually crashing to the canvas. The reports of loose ropes in the ring, perhaps making it easier for Ali to lean back and take some of the sting off those punches. Plus, wasn't the ropes one of Foreman's favorite places to have his foes? Personally, I think its possible that if George had truly wanted to hurt Ali, while having him up against a wall, no matter how flexible those ropes were, he could have. These claims about heat exhaustion don't sit well with me either. Ali was the older of the two men, and supposedly taking the worse crap beating, or so it would appear. You'd think that if anyone was going to drop due to the climate it would have been him. Yes, Foreman struggled with good boxers as we saw later against jimmy Young, but no one else would ever knock him out, and the Foreman who fought Young was not a terribly motivated version of George anyway.

I make no convictions about what happened, and frankly I think that I'm probably wrong and imagining things, but I'm not so sure that it was Muhammad Ali that Goerge Foreman was looking to surivive that evening.
What do you make of Foreman's own claim that he was poisened? He still believes that to this day.
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Old 02-15-2008, 09:43 AM   #52
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
What do you make of Foreman's own claim that he was poisened? He still believes that to this day.
Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. But that's the whole thing though. As time goes on, the story keeps changing. For years we've heard things like, " the ropes were too lose ", or " Foreman suffered from heat exhaustion ", now " Foreman was poisened ". I've also heard George mention something about suffering some sort of a cut in training on the champions forever documentary which was released around 1989.

Do I really think the fight was fixed? Probably not. Muhammad Ali was one of my favorite champions, and the Foreman fight was possibly his greatest masterpiece. I would hate to think that it was a fraud. In all likelyhood, he was just the wrong type of fighter for George's style, and their may be some validity to the whole heat exhaustion thing. I just think that the fight was surrounded by some very bizarre circumstances, and the ever changing stories over the years make it even more peculiar.
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Old 02-15-2008, 09:48 AM   #53
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
If Ali-Foreman being fixed is plausible, then Ali-Bugner is even more plausible.

The fight took place in Malaysia, the largest muslim population in the world, they didn't invite Ali and Bugner over to see Ali get beat. Bugner didn't seem to make any real effort to win the fight, despite the fact that he had done better against a younger Ali a couple of years earlier, and he had physical advantages over Ali. Bugner was seen drinking champagne and swimming in the hotel pool with a big smile on his face straight after the fight.

Obviously, the two Liston fights were fixed, and Magoo's observations about Foreman-Ali on this thread cannot fail to convince that it was probably fixed, and the Bugner fight must have been fixed, IMO. And Norton 3 and Young were pre-determined GIFT decisions ie. FIXED. Doug Jones fight was a gift, Ali was "helped" by the split glove shennanigans against Cooper. And the referee in Frazier 2 was crooked, he probably had money on Ali to win on points .
It's becoming clear that Ali was the biggest fraud and beneficiary of fight fixing since Primo Carnera !!!
I can always appreciate your dry sense of humor Sonny. The fact however, is that I'm not truley scrutinizing Ali's victory over Foreman as being a fix. My point was that I felt the fight had some very bizarre components surrounding it, and if looked at from certain angles, the outcome might appear questionable. But, I probably think that it was on the level.
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:23 AM   #54
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I can always appreciate your dry sense of humor Sonny. The fact however, is that I'm not truley scrutinizing Ali's victory over Foreman as being a fix. My point was that I felt the fight had some very bizarre components surrounding it, and if looked at from certain angles, the outcome might appear questionable. But, I probably think that it was on the level.
I concur the fight was bizarre.

The "cut" on Foreman referred to earlier was an eye cut in training.

The fight was delayed 30 days for George's eye to mend....that was
when I first heard of a "butterfly bandage" that the media referred to
and they showed a picture of George bandaged eye.

Ali said he would fight George right then and wouldn't even try to
hit the cut eye.
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:36 AM   #55
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I can always appreciate your dry sense of humor Sonny. The fact however, is that I'm not truley scrutinizing Ali's victory over Foreman as being a fix. My point was that I felt the fight had some very bizarre components surrounding it, and if looked at from certain angles, the outcome might appear questionable. But, I probably think that it was on the level.
Hey, dont back out on me now, magoo. We're in this thing together.
On the level ?! You must be kidding.
(Hey, I know you gotta keep the truth about this thing kinda hush-hush, so, yeah, let's pretend we think it's on the level. LOL)


Seriously though, I think Foreman was trying to win, but the idea that he was poisoned (and that Dick Sadler perhaps poisoned him) does have some credence, IMO.
Foreman fought as if he was drugged. He looked like he was falling asleep after 4 or 5 rounds. And Dick Sadler was a crooked guy who Foreman didn't trust.
But George was fighting dumb anyway. I think it was lack of experience, that was the main thing.

For all his flaws, (and I believe other good boxers could stand a great chance of beating that reckless version of Foreman), Foreman is arguably the greatest heavyweight ever. We will never again see a heavyweight come out of a 10-year retirement in obscurity and launch a comeback that sees him starting from scratch again, racking up a string of wins against journeymen, go the distance with good champions and top ranked fighters in his 40s, and win the championship by KO at age 45.
People can say it was manufactured and staged, and the product masterful media manipulation, but they forget that Foreman's comeback was his own making, and when he embarked on it as a 266 pound relic, the odds were really against him getting past the likes of Steve Zouski and Rocky Sekorski really.
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:35 AM   #56
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Interesting thread of comments, guys, but, lest we end up believing Godzilla lurks in the sewers of New York City, let's clarify it actually was Foreman and Ali in that jungle ring and, according to the physics of boxing, Ali simply outfought Foreman that night.

A benefit of being a boxing fan in 2008 is we can sit in air-conditioned comfort and watch action in the ring frame by frame. Foreman's murderous intentions are there for all to see in his huge shots, particularly in Rounds 1, 5and 7 (what an uppercut). But, as Frazier said, "George is fightin' stupid", and as Foreman said, "I know I hurt him as much as I hurt any other man in the ring, but he [Ali] would just stand there and wake up again...He could not let people fall that night, it was like he was sacrificing himself."

It was Ali's greatest performance, equaled only by his wonderful postfight interview rant, "I told you!!! I'm the real champion!!! [Frost nodding at camera] I told you!!! I'm the champion of the world!!! All you suckers, crawl!!!...Don't go to no Jimmy the Greek!!! Come to MOEhammad Ali!!! I AM THE MAN!!!"
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:04 PM   #57
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
If Ali-Foreman being fixed is plausible, then Ali-Bugner is even more plausible.

The fight took place in Malaysia, the largest muslim population in the world, they didn't invite Ali and Bugner over to see Ali get beat. Bugner didn't seem to make any real effort to win the fight, despite the fact that he had done better against a younger Ali a couple of years earlier, and he had physical advantages over Ali. Bugner was seen drinking champagne and swimming in the hotel pool with a big smile on his face straight after the fight.

Obviously, the two Liston fights were fixed, and Magoo's observations about Foreman-Ali on this thread cannot fail to convince that it was probably fixed, and the Bugner fight must have been fixed, IMO. And Norton 3 and Young were pre-determined GIFT decisions ie. FIXED. Doug Jones fight was a gift, Ali was "helped" by the split glove shennanigans against Cooper. And the referee in Frazier 2 was crooked, he probably had money on Ali to win on points .
It's becoming clear that Ali was the biggest fraud and beneficiary of fight fixing since Primo Carnera !!!
Foreman would never throw away his belt in a fix. Not a chance. The fixed thing in this fight was the location.
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:44 PM   #58
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Foreman would never throw away his belt in a fix. Not a chance. The fixed thing in this fight was the location.
Yeah, seriously of course Foreman didn't throw the fight.

As for the location being fixed, well, all fights have a fixed location.
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Old 02-15-2008, 04:33 PM   #59
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Default Re: What if the rumble in the jungle moved to the air-conditioning of Madison Square Gar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Hey, dont back out on me now, magoo. We're in this thing together.
On the level ?! You must be kidding.
(Hey, I know you gotta keep the truth about this thing kinda hush-hush, so, yeah, let's pretend we think it's on the level. LOL)


Seriously though, I think Foreman was trying to win, but the idea that he was poisoned (and that Dick Sadler perhaps poisoned him) does have some credence, IMO.
Foreman fought as if he was drugged. He looked like he was falling asleep after 4 or 5 rounds. And Dick Sadler was a crooked guy who Foreman didn't trust.
But George was fighting dumb anyway. I think it was lack of experience, that was the main thing.

For all his flaws, (and I believe other good boxers could stand a great chance of beating that reckless version of Foreman), Foreman is arguably the greatest heavyweight ever. We will never again see a heavyweight come out of a 10-year retirement in obscurity and launch a comeback that sees him starting from scratch again, racking up a string of wins against journeymen, go the distance with good champions and top ranked fighters in his 40s, and win the championship by KO at age 45.
People can say it was manufactured and staged, and the product masterful media manipulation, but they forget that Foreman's comeback was his own making, and when he embarked on it as a 266 pound relic, the odds were really against him getting past the likes of Steve Zouski and Rocky Sekorski really.
I'll never know what to make of Foreman's claim of being poisoned. Maybe there is some merit to it, then again it may be all bullshit. The fact is, people will be arguing the reasons for Foreman's loss for many years to come, and even if it was a fix ( which I doubt ), we'll never know for sure. As for his comeback, there has always been and always will be ex-champions trying to take one last stab at rekindling their greatness. I agree however, that it is unlikely that another champion will ever launch a comeback that will amount to the magnitude of the one that Foreman embarked on between 1987-1997. It was because of his second career, compiled with the accomplishments of his first, that I have him rated as one of the best ever.
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