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Old 04-15-2012, 04:16 PM   #16
mcvey
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
So Hank Griffin who beat Jack Johnson, and Bob Armstrong who could hit some were less threatening fighters? Jeffries has reported wins over black fighters day.






This is because Jackson had class. Johnson reinforced all negative stereo types. A magnet for trouble.

The color line back then was something like a country club membership. No everyone was welcome, however every champion has their terms and conditions to take an unpopular match. For example, as heavyweight champion Jeffries was the first white guy to give a black man a fight. While it was only a 4 round match vs Hank Griffin. If Griffin somehow won via KO, he's the next lineal champion.
The excuse Jeffries gave for not fighting blacks was that Jackson's followers caused riots.I stated I have never read of any thing of that sort happening after a Jackson win ,can you produce evidence to the contrary?


The Griffin fight was a 4 round no decision ,Griiffin would have had to ko Jeffries to win, hardly likely.Griffin was in there strictly to claim the cash forfeit from Jeffries by lasting the 4 rds,it was an exhibition ,and a rather poor one at that.
Jackson did have class ,a damn sight more than the two champions who ducked him, Sullivan and Corbett.
Where did his class get him? He died heartbroken, alcoholic , tubercular ,and bankrupt,having been denied a chance at the title by two white champions,and ducked by a third, Fitzsimmons.

Griffin and Armstrong were not as threatening as opponents as McVey and Johnson were , both of whom challenged Jeffries ,with promoters offering very good purses for Jeffries to defend against them, he ignored their challenges. After McVey ko'd Denver Ed Martin in 1 rd a promoter offered Jeffries $20,000 to defend against him.

No sale, McVey then fought Johnson and got a terrible hiding before being kod in the last round
Jeffries took on no hoper Jack Munroe instead, and lost money.

Jack Johnson's first defence was supposed to have been against Denver Ed , but Martin pulled out, and Victor McLaglen was pressed in to fill the breach. Johnson dropped him with the first punch he threw,a body shot that left him helpless,after that Jack carried him .


"One report, prior to the start of the bout, described Griffin looking like a "famine sufferer". "

n.b. Griffin beat Johnson in 1901 ,when Johnson was scaling around 168/ 17O lbs . Everyone knows what your problem is regarding Jack Johnson .
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:25 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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It is definitely possible to find media interest in a Martin title fight.

Some even tipped Martin to win, which I don't recal anybody doing with Johnson!
I concur. But media interest is different from public interest. The public was largely apathetic about the notion of a Jeffries-Martin fight.

The media was more hellbent on seeing the color line broken than anything else.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:03 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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The excuse Jeffries gave for not fighting blacks was that Jackson's followers caused riots.I stated I have never read of any thing of that sort happening after a Jackson win ,can you produce evidence to the contrary?

Jackson did have class ,a damn sight more than the two champions who ducked him, Sullivan and Corbett.
Where did his class get him?He died heartbroken, alcoholic , tubercular ,and bankrupt,having been denied a chance at the title by two white champions,and ducked by a third, Fitzsimmons.

I was watching "Unforgiveable Blackness" yesterday and it seemed to me Johnson because quite wealthy long before he fought Tommy Burns for the heavyweight title, so there must have been some pretty good $$$ to be made without actually having to have won a title.

After all before winning a title he had money for cars and was able to follow Tommy around europe and other parts of the world trying to goat him into a fight. He also had enough financial resources to allow a couple of his female friends to tag along. Even when he was starting out, it was mentioned that the money from one fight would often equal a months salary for the average joe. So why Jackson was bankrupt while Johnson was well off absent a title fight is a mystery to me.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:16 AM   #19
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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I was watching "Unforgiveable Blackness" yesterday and it seemed to me Johnson because quite wealthy long before he fought Tommy Burns for the heavyweight title, so there must have been some pretty good $$$ to be made without actually having to have won a title.

After all before winning a title he had money for cars and was able to follow Tommy around europe and other parts of the world trying to goat him into a fight. He also had enough financial resources to allow a couple of his female friends to tag along. Even when he was starting out, it was mentioned that the money from one fight would often equal a months salary for the average joe. So why Jackson was bankrupt while Johnson was well off absent a title fight is a mystery to me.
Johnson borrowed the money to follow Burns to Australia ,he and his manager lamented the fact that the Aussies made Burns the bettting favourite ,and they could not clean up on the odds because they did not have any $$$ they even owed the rent for their rooms.
Johnson lived above his means all his life he spent money like a sailor on shore leave.

Jackson received $1,878 for his purse from the Jeffries fight, and very quickly spent it on drink.
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"After 1892 Jackson was unable to obtain fights.Past his prime,he was debiliated by fast living and probably even then tubercular.He taught boxing ,worked as a publican,toured as an actor in Uncle Tom,s Cabin,and boxed exhibitions.In March 1898,he was sacrificed to Jim Jeffries,who flattened him in 3 rds,and next year he suffered the 3rd of hislosses in 37 fights,at the hands of a 4th raterin Vancouver.Money was raised to send him to Australia,where he toured with Fitzgeralds Circus,but was too ill to box"
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:29 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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I concur. But media interest is different from public interest. The public was largely apathetic about the notion of a Jeffries-Martin fight.

The media was more hellbent on seeing the color line broken than anything else.
How do you deduce public opinion back then, if not from the media?
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:44 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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How do you deduce public opinion back then, if not from the media?
You can't. To make myself more clear, if one goes back and reads what was being said in the newspapers during those years it makes it easier to get an idea of what the public was clamoring for and what they weren't.

I'm sure there were certain sportswriters who wanted to see Jeffries-Martin. But that doesn't mean that the public was clamoring for it. Go back and read the news in the Sullivan era and it becomes clear that there was a big demand for a fight with Peter Jackson, both in the press and among the public. Same with Wills and Dempsey.

Jeffries-Martin? Jeffries-Johnson? Not so much. Sportswriters wanted that more than the boxing public. A handful of them anyway...
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:46 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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You can't. To make myself more clear, if one goes back and reads what was being said in the newspapers during those years it makes it easier to get an idea of what the public was clamoring for and what they weren't.

I'm sure there were certain sportswriters who wanted to see Jeffries-Martin. But that doesn't mean that the public was clamoring for it. Go back and read the news in the Sullivan era and it becomes clear that there was a big demand for a fight with Peter Jackson, both in the press and among the public. Same with Wills and Dempsey.

Jeffries-Martin? Jeffries-Johnson? Not so much. Sportswriters wanted that more than the boxing public. A handful of them anyway...
Next question.

Was Jeffries more influenced by media oppinion or public oppinion?

Which had greater beraring in his choice of title defences?
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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Next question.

Was Jeffries more influenced by media oppinion or public oppinion?

Which had greater beraring in his choice of title defences?
From what I've read it was money more than either of those two concerns, which puts him in alignment with Jack Johnson and most other HW champions who followed.
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Old 04-16-2012, 07:51 PM   #24
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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If Jeffries was worried about the Jackson fans causing riots , how come he was happy to fight him when Jackson was 37,consumptive , alcoholic, and many years retired?
Ironic that it was Jeffries fans that caused the riots. Personally I like to think Jeffries simply didn't see the need to fight and enjoyed his life on the farm more than being a boxer. When he saw the opportunity however he thought it was the perfect time to beat Jack but boy was he wrong. Prime for prime I like Johnson over Jeffries anyway
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:58 PM   #25
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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Mendoza says: So Hank Griffin who beat Jack Johnson, and Bob Armstrong who could hit some were less threatening fighters? Jeffries has reported wins over black fighters day.
Quote:

This is because Jackson had class. Johnson reinforced all negative stereo types. A magnet for trouble.

The color line back then was something like a country club membership. No everyone was welcome, however every champion has their terms and conditions to take an unpopular match. For example, as heavyweight champion Jeffries was the first white guy to give a black man a fight. While it was only a 4 round match vs Hank Griffin. If Griffin somehow won via KO, he's the next lineal champion.




Quote:
mcvey says: The excuse Jeffries gave for not fighting blacks was that Jackson's followers caused riots.I stated I have never read of any thing of that sort happening after a Jackson win ,can you produce evidence to the contrary?



Mendoza says: Um, Jeffries vs. Johnson did cause riots. You can't be that stupid...


Quote:
Mcvey says: The Griffin fight was a 4 round no decision ,Griiffin would have had to ko Jeffries to win, hardly likely.Griffin was in there strictly to claim the cash forfeit from Jeffries by lasting the 4 rds,it was an exhibition ,and a rather poor one at that.



And the same Griffin defeated Jack Johnson. Jeffries toyed with Griffin, and floored him several times.



Quote:
Mcvey says : Griffin and Armstrong were not as threatening as opponents as McVey and Johnson were , both of whom challenged Jeffries ,with promoters offering very good purses for Jeffries to defend against them, he ignored their challenges. After McVey ko'd Denver Ed Martin in 1 rd a promoter offered Jeffries $20,000 to defend against him.



Sam Mcvey was 20 years old when he last fought Johnson in 1904! Jeffries has a reported early Ko over Martin, who was a 6'6 180 pound string bean who could not take a punch to the head or body.



Quote:
Mcvey says Jeffries took on no hoper Jack Munroe instead, and lost money.



To call Munroe a no hopper is a bit harsh. Others here have called you out on this before. Half the reason for the fight was Munroe's exaggeration of the 4 round exhibition in Montana. Jeffries floored Munroe a few times, but thanks to bad press, Munore claimed a knockdown, which never happened. Anyway, Jeffries blew out Munore. You boy carried an out of shape Munroe the distance.


Quote:
Mcvey says :"One report, prior to the start of the bout, described Griffin looking like a "famine sufferer". "

Great! Then Johnson lost to a "famine sufferer." Classic stuff! RLOMAO at you. Your a real dolt. Facts can be stubborn things. I have too many of them. You shoot from the hip, and never learn.


Quote:
Mcvey says : n.b. Griffin beat Johnson in 1901 ,when Johnson was scaling around 168/ 17O lbs .

BS!!!! Show me this weight for Johnson vs Griffin. Stop lying and guessing. Johnson was 185 pounds in 1902.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:48 AM   #26
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post






Mendoza says: Um, Jeffries vs. Johnson did cause riots. You can't be that stupid...





And the same Griffin defeated Jack Johnson. Jeffries toyed with Griffin, and floored him several times.






Sam Mcvey was 20 years old when he last fought Johnson in 1904! Jeffries has a reported early Ko over Martin, who was a 6'6 180 pound string bean who could not take a punch to the head or body.






To call Munroe a no hopper is a bit harsh. Others here have called you out on this before. Half the reason for the fight was Munroe's exaggeration of the 4 round exhibition in Montana. Jeffries floored Munroe a few times, but thanks to bad press, Munore claimed a knockdown, which never happened. Anyway, Jeffries blew out Munore. You boy carried an out of shape Munroe the distance.





Great! Then Johnson lost to a "famine sufferer." Classic stuff! RLOMAO at you. Your a real dolt. Facts can be stubborn things. I have too many of them. You shoot from the hip, and never learn.





BS!!!! Show me this weight for Johnson vs Griffin. Stop lying and guessing. Johnson was 185 pounds in 1902.

Johnson was not prime for Hart, and photos emphatically prove it. The year after he fought Hart, Johnson scaled, 185lbs for his fight with Langford .


Johnson scaled 185lbs for his fight with Sailor Burke in 1907 , [two years after the Hart fight ,] and only scaled 184 for his fight with Jim Flynn, that same year.

The Jeffries v Johnson fight not only caused riots it lead to numerous deaths.


Can you explain what relevance this has to the current topic?


Can you further explain how Jeffries gave as his excuse for not defending against black contenders, the threat of racial riots, yet was happy to challenge a black champion in an attempt to regain his title?
How does that square with his previous excuse?

The aftermath of that fight led to several lynchings, in states many and diverse.

The great trumpeter Louis Armstrong recounted, how as a kid he had to flee a gang of enraged white hooligans looking to beat up any blacks they found.

There is no primary source that shows Jeffries ever fought Denver Ed Martin, though Martin's manager challenged Jeffries on several occasions.

There is however, primary sourced proof that Jack Johnson fought Martin .
Below.

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Johnson kod Martin in 2 rds, rendering him senseless for nearly 10 minutes, the police held Johnson, in case Martin did not come round.


N. B. After this fight the promoter of the Century Ahtletic Club offered Jeffries a $15,000 guarantee to defend against Johnson, he declined.


Perhaps he was concerned about racial riots?

Very public spirited of him.

The 20 years old Sam McVey kod Denver Ed Martin in one round, the promoter of that fight offered Jeffries $20,000 to defend against McVey, Jeffries refused.

Instead he fought the sub par MUNROE,and lost money [I've put the name caps yet again ,in the hope you may finally learn to spell it]



Johnson played with MUNROE.

Below.


It's interesting that the papers commented that Munroe had not learned the first thing about fighting, not even how to properly deliver a punch, yet he fought for the world title?
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Griffin was describes as," a famine sufferer," in his no dec bout with Jeffries , no one has yet produced a decription fitting that for his fight with Johnson .
N. B. Griffin was over 200lbs, and around 6'3.5"


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I agree ,calling Munroe a "no hopper " is a bit harsh. I'll call him a, "no hoper" , how's that?


NEXT!!!!
N. B. I have refrained from calling you a fool here , to do so would be pointless, as it is self evident.


P.S. Would you like to visit the other Johnson thread now, and redress your lies on that?

Last edited by mcvey; 04-18-2012 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:24 AM   #27
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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Ironic that it was Jeffries fans that caused the riots. Personally I like to think Jeffries simply didn't see the need to fight and enjoyed his life on the farm more than being a boxer. When he saw the opportunity however he thought it was the perfect time to beat Jack but boy was he wrong. Prime for prime I like Johnson over Jeffries anyway

The very fact that Jeffries announced he was coming back to fight Johnson ensured him a fortune in his vaudeville act.

Jeffries had toured the States in a production called Man Of The West, starring as Davy Crocket , though he was a suprisingly competent actor the audiences did not warm to him, and the financial results were dissapointing.

After announcing his impending comeback ,the fickle crowds flocked to see him and he duly cashed in.



Jeffries embarked on two back to back tours and made an absolute fortune from them,ironically in may have been because of this that he put up such a poor showing in his challenge.


Jeffries had got down to weight well in advance of the fight having spent 3 months at a health resort in Carlsbad where he lost over 30lbs.When he returned to the US Jeffries was under 240lbs. But he had not done any meaningful sparring and that which he later did was against oldsters Armstrong, Corbett ,and Choynski.

The pursuit of the dollar may have robbed Jeffries of his chance to make a meaningful showing against Johnson, though I think the result was always going to be the same.
Jeffries at one point, stated he would not fight Johnson in Reno ,and the fight looked like being called off.

Rickard the promoter and subsequently the referee, asked what his objections were?
After some hesitation , Jeffries revealed that he had $25,000 gambling debts in Reno which he was reneged on. Rickard ,with the prospect of $$$$ flying out the window ,managed to secure a compromise with Jeffries creditors,wherein Jeffries would pay 50 cents on the dollar of the debt ,out of his earnings from the fight.


Prime for prime, I would pick Johnson but it would have been a considerably tougher fight.

William Brady who managed , not only Jeffries ,but Corbett as well,[when Jeffries told Brady he was coming back for Johnson, Brady told him he was a certainty to be beaten, Jeffries never spoke to him again], stated prime Jeffries would have beaten Johnson.

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Old 04-17-2012, 11:21 AM   #28
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

In 1906 Jeffries announced he was coming out of retirement to fight Bill Squires.

Jeffries said he would take on anyone with the exception of Jack Johnson.

Here is the link,and the reporters reaction to it.

The second column is particularly interesting.

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Old 04-18-2012, 05:21 AM   #29
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Default Re: Jeffries explains why he drew the color line

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From what I've read it was money more than either of those two concerns, which puts him in alignment with Jack Johnson and most other HW champions who followed.
Jeffries was influenced by $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

He doesn't appear to have had any problems with Native Americans, as long as they provided a source of revenue.

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