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Old 04-15-2012, 06:00 PM   #1
cuchulain
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Default Fights that would measure fighters across time.

This thread owes some of its inspiration to boxxunggurr's thread in the general, but is a bit different.

We've often heard that boxing is different today from when Dempsey and Johnson and Corbett and even Lewis and Ali were in the ring.

And this is undeniable.

Now you want to sort out your all-time lists but you're having a helluva time calibrating eras and drawing comparisons between fighters of different eras.

That was, till you kick a can and out popped a genie who told yo that you could watch ANY FOUR FIGHTS between Any four sets of opponents from any era Time was not an issue, and all fighters would be prime and fully trained.

In order to get then best baselining and calibration, which bouts would you select.


Since only four bouts are available, perhaps we should sick to ONE weight division.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:04 PM   #2
DonBoxer
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

I dont think its really much different from when Ali was in the ring, certainly not from Lewis.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonBoxer View Post
I dont think its really much different from when Ali was in the ring, certainly not from Lewis.

Possibly.



But I would seriously doubt that.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:24 PM   #4
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Heavyweight

Ali-Lewis
Holyfield-Frazier
Foreman-Tyson
Marciano-Louis

Light Heavyweight

Moorer-RJJ
Spinks-Charles
RJJ-Spinks
Moore-Tunney

Middleweight

Monzon-Hagler
RJJ-Robinson
Lamotta-Greb
Bhop-Hearns

Welterweight

Robinson-Leonard
Armstrong-Walcott
Hearns-Robinson
Gavilan-Napoles

Lightweight

Whitaker-Duran
Mayweather-Mosley
Ike-Armstrong
DLH-Pryor

Last edited by Webbiano; 04-15-2012 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
Heavyweight

Ali-Lewis
Holyfield-Frazier
Foreman-Tyson
Marciano-Louis

Light Heavyweight

Moorer-RJJ
Spinks-Charles
RJJ-Tunney

Middleweight

Monzon-Hagler
RJJ-Robinson
Lamotta-Greb
Bhop-Hearns
Wouldn't be a contest.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:47 PM   #6
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Middleweight:

Ketchel-Graziano
LaMotta-Tiger
RJJ-SRR
Monzon-Hagler
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:24 PM   #7
Bill Butcher
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Fights from certain divisions that would give me personal satisfaction (Primes)

Heavyweight: Muhammad Ali vs Lennox Lewis.....
Reason - Lennox is a bit overrated these days & a prime Ali would set the record straight on that shit one way or another.

Middleweight: Sugar Ray Robinson vs Bernard Hopkins.....
Reason - B-Hop thinks he`s a technical genius, lets see what answers he has against the SRR that stopped Lamotta, my guess is none.

Welterweight: Pernell Whitaker vs Floyd Mayweather.....
Reason - I tried to like floyd because I enjoy watching him in the ring but he simply isn`t playing the game & needs to be beaten in the worse way possible for him & thats by being outboxed so lets see how he handles the Whitaker that beat Chavez & Mcgirt at 147.

Lightweight: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez....
Reason - I actually like these guys equally but Duran gets his credit & Chavez doesn`t, people think Duran would win easily but I know it would be a very close give & take war that would go to the cards & JCC would get the respect he deserves win or lose.

Featherweight: Salvador Sanchez vs Manny Pacquiao....
Reason - Like floyd, pac is a cunt, so I`m throwing him to Sanchez to pick him apart piece by piece over 15 brutal rounds, he`s all wrong for pac & would send him packing by countering his ragged ass all night long, it would be sweet.

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Old 04-15-2012, 09:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Why pick floyd and Whitaker 2 and 3 weights above their prime weights? Absaloute waste if you had just 4 fights too pick.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:30 AM   #9
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
Why pick floyd and Whitaker 2 and 3 weights above their prime weights? Absaloute waste if you had just 4 fights too pick.
And not only that, but they're practically contemporaries.

The idea is to get a sense of head-to-head assessment across the decades.

E.g.


Dempsey (1924) v Marciano ( 1955)
Marciano (1955) v Tyson (1989)

and

Armstrong (at LW, 1937) v Duran (at LW, 1975)
Duran (at LW, 1975) v Pacquaio (at LW, 2008 )



This four bouts might give some relative measure of the HW and LW divisions (and by extrapolation, all of the weight classes) over a 60-65 year span.



Which four (mythical) bouts would you select ?
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:02 AM   #10
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuchulain View Post
And not only that, but they're practically contemporaries.

The idea is to get a sense of head-to-head assessment across the decades.

E.g.


Dempsey (1924) v Marciano ( 1955)
Marciano (1955) v Tyson (1989)

and

Armstrong (at LW, 1937) v Duran (at LW, 1975)
Duran (at LW, 1975) v Pacquaio (at LW, 2008 )



This four bouts might give some relative measure of the HW and LW divisions (and by extrapolation, all of the weight classes) over a 60-65 year span.



Which four (mythical) bouts would you select ?


If I had just the four?

Ali-Lewis - in my eyes the two best H2H heavyweights although I have Lewis around 5-6 ATG too see how he does against prime Ali could solidify that ranking if he was to lose a close decision or even better it if he won a close decision

Robinson-Leonard - at Welterweight there's no greater possible match up in my eyes. Both ATG and p4p no.1 against a p4p top 10. Would be an epic

Whitaker-Duran - Duran was an absolute beast at Lightweight and many assume him to be unbeatable at it. Let's see how he does against the potentially slickest fighter of all time, my money would be for Pernell to nick a close one

Monzon-Hagler - the 2 best middleweights H2H in my mind (Greb is the ATG no.1 however I only rate him top 5 H2H)
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:22 AM   #11
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
Why pick floyd and Whitaker 2 and 3 weights above their prime weights? Absaloute waste if you had just 4 fights too pick.
Not really, I think both became better technical boxers up at 147, they weren`t as active as they were in the lower weights but IMO they were better boxers than at the lower weights.

Put it this way, neither became undisputed p4p no1 until they fought at WW, this was the high point of both mens careers.

I think this match would be a brilliant technical masterpiece... one that Whitaker would win.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:38 AM   #12
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

HW :
Doug Jones vs Max Schmelling
Tua vs Louis
McCall (1994) vs Vitali (prime)
McCall (1994) vs George Foreman (1974 , but in a cool place)

prime Cautios Play vs Pinklon Thomas / Carl Williams / Tim Witherspoon could also put some things in perspective , just like Ali vs Wlad or Vitali would .

prime Foreman vs prime Valuev would be nice as well

LHW :
Roy Jones vs Doug Jones (of d Harold Johnson fight)
Bob Foster vs Doug Jones (of d Harold Johnson fight , so it would b a title fight)
Muhammad Qawi vs Archie Wright
Ezzard Charles vs Doug Jones (d 171 lbs Doug Jones)

Spinks vs Doug Jones and vs Ezzard Charles will b very needed just as much

SMW :
Roy Jones (1994) vs James Toney (1993/2)
Roy Jones vs Lloyd Marshall
Gerald McClellan vs Joe Calzaghe
James Toney vs Ezzard Charles

MW :
Carlos Monzon vs Mike McCallum
Marvin Hagler vs Sumbu Kalambay
Harry Greb vs Merqui Sosa
Stanley Ketchell vs Sanderline Williams


Ihetu vs Monzon could b nice as well , don't xpect Monzon 2 do 2 a relatively prime Ihetu what Foster did 2 him yrs past his prime .
Also I more than just doubt Monzon's ability 2 stop d Sandman .

LMW :
Thomas Hearns vs Mike McCallum
Ray Leonard vs Julian Jackson
Bruce Curry vs Simon Brown
Donald Curry (partially rehydrated "welterweight") vs Jose Luis Lopez

WW :
Walker Smith Jr vs Sam Langford
Walker Smith Jr vs Paul Williams
Ray Leonard vs Marlon Starling
"Montreal" Duran vs Carmen Basilio

LWW :
Oscar Delahoya vs Manny Pacquiao
Pernell Whitaker vs Barney Ross
Robero Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez
Vinny Pazienza vs Aaron Pryor (would surprise many , but not myself)

LW :
Henry Armstrong vs Alexis Arguello
Pernell Whitaker vs Floyd Mayweather Jr (2 put some things in proportion)
Jose Luis Ramirez vs Ike Williams
Orzubek Nazarov vs Barney Ross

FW :
Salvador Sanchez vs Alexis Arguello
Juan LaPorte vs Henry Armstrong
Eusebio Pedroza vs Sandy Saddler
Naseem Hamed vs Manny Pacquiao

BW :
Eder Jofre vs Carlos Zarate
could post a few more , but haven't really got 2 these weights yet .
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:53 PM   #13
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Money May (Hatton fight) vs. Montreal Duran
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Old 04-17-2012, 01:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
Fights from certain divisions that would give me personal satisfaction (Primes)

Heavyweight: Muhammad Ali vs Lennox Lewis.....
Reason - Lennox is a bit overrated these days & a prime Ali would set the record straight on that shit one way or another.

Middleweight: Sugar Ray Robinson vs Bernard Hopkins.....
Reason - B-Hop thinks he`s a technical genius, lets see what answers he has against the SRR that stopped Lamotta, my guess is none.

Welterweight: Pernell Whitaker vs Floyd Mayweather.....
Reason - I tried to like floyd because I enjoy watching him in the ring but he simply isn`t playing the game & needs to be beaten in the worse way possible for him & thats by being outboxed so lets see how he handles the Whitaker that beat Chavez & Mcgirt at 147.

Lightweight: Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez....
Reason - I actually like these guys equally but Duran gets his credit & Chavez doesn`t, people think Duran would win easily but I know it would be a very close give & take war that would go to the cards & JCC would get the respect he deserves win or lose.

Featherweight: Salvador Sanchez vs Manny Pacquiao....
Reason - Like floyd, pac is a cunt, so I`m throwing him to Sanchez to pick him apart piece by piece over 15 brutal rounds, he`s all wrong for pac & would send him packing by countering his ragged ass all night long, it would be sweet.

Nice post. I agree almost completely. Lightweight Chavez was seriously formidable. Ultimately, I think Duran's speed of foot could make the difference in a close one.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: Fights that would measure fighters across time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natonic View Post
Nice post. I agree almost completely. Lightweight Chavez was seriously formidable. Ultimately, I think Duran's speed of foot could make the difference in a close one.
I have always favoured Duran in this match-up myself if forced to pick but by the slimmest of margins & only because of his natural size & 2 handed power rather than his feet... others think Duran wins easy, they are living on planet pluto IMO... I think it would be a Morales/Barrera type fight (1st fight), back & forth war & brilliant to watch but a nightmare to score.
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