Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-16-2008, 01:38 AM   #31
Russell
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,435
vCash: 118
Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

With Bowe he probably eats jabs even more accurate and damaging than Golota's and gets brain damaged over the course of the fight.
Russell is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-18-2008, 12:28 PM   #32
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,264
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
Liston would stop Holyfield early. That sure is a brave call indeed. A prime Holyfield was never knocked out, and even when past his prime his jaw was reliable. He stood up to Foreman's bombs, without flinching, and was also out-weighed by around 40lbs. And Tyson done no more than put a slight dent in Holyfield's armour over two fights.

If you think Holyfield would meet Liston head on, centre ring, from the opening bell and trade bombs, think again. Holyfield was inclined to get involved, but he could be cute in there and feel his way into a fight. It's arguable exactly how Holyfield would approach a fight with Liston. His sensible head was at times on his shoulders, at other times it wasn't. But that don't matter a jot, going on the evidence of his previous encounters and how durable he was with very hard hitting heavyweights, Tyson and Foreman, it's highly unlikely Liston gets the job done early.
It was a bold call, now that you bring it up. I would take issue with the Foreman and Tyson comparisons though. Foreman was plodding and slow and 1959 Liston was a better puncher, more active, and explosive than 1992 Foreman. Holyfield knew that if you move Tyson backwards, he is not as dangerous and was in fact downright ineffective. Personally, I think that Holyfield figured that out when they sparred as amateurs. Holyfield would not move Liston back. It's a different fight completely.

I also do believe that Holyfield would box Liston aggressively. I don't think he was comfortable any other way and would rely on his speed to do this. Benton and Duva encouraged this style and in his HW prime, that was who he was with. Even later, with few exceptions, he fought like the "Holy Warrior" he fashioned himself.

The comparison that do give me pause are Bowe I and Dokes... I have to soften my position because of your retort and my own reconsideration. Liston still stops Holyfield in my opinion, but not necessarily early.
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2008, 01:34 PM   #33
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,459
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Sonny Liston isn't stopping, KOing, or even decisioning Evander Holyfield. Holy was an entirely different class of heavyweight than most Liston ever faced except Ali who beat him easily. Unlike Floyd patterson and several others whom Liston defeated, Holyfield had a granite chin that was tested against a greater line of bigger stronger heavyweights, and was a fairly skilled fighter in exceptional physical condition. He survived the power of Mike Tyson ( 2x ), George Foreman, Lennox Lewis ( 2x), and Riddick Bowe ( 2x ). Half of those fights came when he was past his prime by the way. I also don't buy the notion that Liston would just use his jab to keep Holyfield off balance and outbox him all night. Holyfield found ways to beat more quality opponents than Liston ever did, and if we're talking about a peak Holyfield, not the one who lost to John Ruiz, then Evander wins everytime.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2008, 03:59 PM   #34
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,089
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Sonny Liston isn't stopping, KOing, or even decisioning Evander Holyfield. Holy was an entirely different class of heavyweight than most Liston ever faced except Ali who beat him easily.
A. I wouldnt say Ali beat him easily. If Liston had actualy trained like a champion it could have got interesting in there.

I dont think that it is unthinkable that some of Listons victims could have upset Hollyfield. Patterson and Machen perhaps.

Quote:
Unlike Floyd patterson and several others whom Liston defeated, Holyfield had a granite chin
Liston knocked out some prety durable fighters, somtimes in a way that nobody expected. Take Wayne Bethea for example. He was the Tex Cobb of his era and Liston knocked him out in under a minute with just his jab breaking his teeth inside his mouthpeice.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2008, 08:41 PM   #35
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,459
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Quote:
=janitor]

A. I wouldnt say Ali beat him easily.
Well, I wouldn't call either fight a toe to toe war. I think Clay beat him rather handedly.

Quote:
If Liston had actualy trained like a champion it could have got interesting in there.
Well, he didn't. And keep in mind, this wasn't a fully developed Ali either.

I
Quote:
dont think that it is unthinkable that some of Listons victims could have upset Hollyfield. Patterson and Machen perhaps.
Which version? The one who fought John Ruiz or the one who took the title in 1990? If we're talking about the latter of the two, then none of Liston's victoms are walking away with a "W".

Quote:
Liston knocked out some prety durable fighters, somtimes in a way that nobody expected. Take Wayne Bethea for example. He was the Tex Cobb of his era and Liston knocked him out in under a minute with just his jab breaking his teeth inside his mouthpeice.
Few of the men who Bethea survived, with the possible exceptions of Nino Valdez and Cleveland Williams were terribly big punchers. Most of them were under 200 Lbs, and had very low KO percentages. Holyfield's chin and durability was far better tested, and more importantly, he had the arsenal to fight back and hurt liston-something that Bethea couldn't do. Although I respect Liston's ability to reak havock, comparing Evander Holyfield to Wayne Bethea is not a viable measure of what Liston would do to Holyfield.

Last edited by mr. magoo; 02-18-2008 at 08:59 PM.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 09:33 AM   #36
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,089
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Well, I wouldn't call either fight a toe to toe war. I think Clay beat him rather handedly.

Well, he didn't. And keep in mind, this wasn't a fully developed Ali either.
My point is that once a champion stops taking his training seriously and dose not give oponents the respect they deserve he is heading in only one direction.

A beating.

Quote:
Which version? The one who fought John Ruiz or the one who took the title in 1990? If we're talking about the latter of the two, then none of Liston's victoms are walking away with a "W".
Lets say the version that lost to Michael Moorer.

Is it such a stretch to suggest that Machen or Folley might have beaten that Holyfield?

Quote:
Few of the men who Bethea survived, with the possible exceptions of Nino Valdez and Cleveland Williams were terribly big punchers.
Williams and Valdez are frankly nothing to sneeze at as punchers.

Quote:
Holyfield's chin and durability was far better tested,
Err. Yes

Quote:
and more importantly, he had the arsenal to fight back and hurt liston-something that Bethea couldn't do.
Dose he though?

Liston was clearly in with more formidable punchers than Holyfield even if his power is perhaps under rated a bit. Williams for example while clearly a lesser fighter than Holyfield was a much more formidable banger.

Quote:
Although I respect Liston's ability to reak havock, comparing Evander Holyfield to Wayne Bethea is not a viable measure of what Liston would do to Holyfield.
It was not intended as a direct comparison.

I was pointing out that Liston cracked some nuts that the other punchers of the period couldnt.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 10:35 AM   #37
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,459
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Quote:
=janitor]


My point is that once a champion stops taking his training seriously and dose not give oponents the respect they deserve he is heading in only one direction.

A beating.
Yes, but its not like Clay struggled with this version of Liston. It would be one thing if he dropped Clay, and extended him the distance to lose a close decision. Then we might be able to say that a peak Sonny may have dusted Clay, but the reality is that he was dominated. In addition, as I said before, this was not a peak Clay. Ali did not reach his prime until around 1967, when he was a bit more seasoned and had several defenses under his belt.


Quote:
Lets say the version that lost to Michael Moorer.
Is this what you consider to be the best example of Holyfield? He was fighting with a bum shoulder and after the fight was diagnosed with a heart condition, leading to him taking a break from the sport. Still, he went 12 rounds and even floored Moorer to lose a close decision, to a very formidable undefeated opponent at the time. Although this was not the best version of Evander, he still could have beaten a lot of fighters, even on that evening.



Quote:
Is it such a stretch to suggest that Machen or Folley might have beaten that Holyfield?
Its never a stretch to say that any fighter could have beaten any fighter on any given evening. In over 100 years of history in the sport, we have seen more than enough examples where heavily favoured fighters lost to underdogs. The key with making predictions about fantasy matchups however, is that we have to assess the probability of an outcome. Based on the accomplishments of Folley and Machen's career's when sized up to Holyfield's I'd have to make the odds heavily in favor of Holyfield.


Quote:
Williams and Valdez are frankly nothing to sneeze at as punchers.
Precisely why I used the words " with the possible of EXCEPTION of Nino Valdez and Cleveland Williams. " The rest of the men who Bethea survived were not destroyers by most peoples definition. Although, I have never seen many of those other guys fight, their size perameters combined with the number knockouts to wins, doesn't indicate that they were huge hitters. Now look at some of the people Holyfield withstood: Bowe, Foreman, Stewart, Dokes, Moorer, Tyson, Lewis. I'm sure you can agree that these men are a far cry from Folley, Carter, mildenberger and many of the other men who Bethea took the distance.


Quote:
Err. Yes
[quote]
Agreed.

Quote:
Dose he though?


Liston was clearly in with more formidable punchers than Holyfield even if his power is perhaps under rated a bit. Williams for example while clearly a lesser fighter than Holyfield was a much more formidable banger.
My point was that he was more capable of hurting Liston than BETHEA was. And incidently, I can't think of too many fighters, who Liston defeated who had the best all around package of power, chin, heart, stamina, guts, conditioning and skill then Evander Holyfield. You might name a few opponents who may have bested him in only one or two of the abave categories, but certainly not all. If Liston had fought a prime Holyfield, he likely would have been the best well rounded fighter he faced, including the inexperienced version of Ali that he actually met.


Quote:
It was not intended as a direct comparison.
Fair enough.

Quote:
I was pointing out that Liston cracked some nuts that the other punchers of the period couldnt.
Very true, and as I said before, Liston's abilities as a puncher are a tremendous force to be reckoned with. If even the greatest fighters got careless or sloppy against him, he'd make them pay dearly.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2008, 11:30 PM   #38
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 12,192
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How do you rate Sonny liston?

Liston has become a media jizz job, though he still stands as great. He just looked better than he was in the weakest era known to man (the Norris/mob controlled post Marciano-era).

He stands a good chance of beating everyone before him except Louis and Marciano, but both could go either way.

In his prime, he would have a good chance against Frazier, no chance against Ali, 50/50 against Foreman, little chance against Holmes, no chance against Lewis or either Klitch.

But he would probably beat Bruce Seldon.
Seamus is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013