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Old 05-04-2012, 09:18 AM   #1
McGrain
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Default A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

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The last time Floyd “Money” Mayweather stepped up to 154 lbs., he dropped the only card of his career, with judge Tom Kaczmarek scoring 115-113 for Oscar De La Hoya in their May 2007 encounter for the WBC light middleweight title. Oscar was, at the time, not to be found on any P4P list and was ranked fifth at 154 lbs. by Ring magazine. Currently, the same publication ranks Miguel Cotto, who will be the man in the other corner for Mayweather’s second foray up to light middleweight, as #1 in that division, and he is ranked #9 pound-for pound by Boxing.com
Mayweather was almost universally regarded as the world’s greatest boxer when his fight with De La Hoya was made, but Oscar had done little to recommend himself. Whilst he had looked spectacular against the always-willing Ricardo Mayorga almost a year earlier, in the three years prior to that he had lost a questionable decision to Shane Mosley, won a questionable decision against Felix Sturm, and been stopped by Bernard Hopkins. He was 2-2 and averaging a fight a year. In short, he was semi-retired.
Miguel Cotto, on the other hand, is an active champion and is 3-1 in his last four fights, all his wins coming by way of stoppage. His only loss came against the Ying to Mayweather’s Yang, his twisted mirror image, his only competitor for the pound-for-pound crown he wore for his fight with De La Hoya, the offensive machine to Mayweather’s defensive genius, Manny Pacquiao. In short—Cotto is not semi-retired.
The only card on which Mayweather has ever lost was at the weight where these two meet on Saturday night and with a certain kind of light illuminating a certain kind of paper, Cotto should be a tougher challenge for the ageing Mayweather than the ageing De La Hoya was for the younger Floyd. So what was it about Oscar that troubled Mayweather that night? And much more importantly, can Cotto recreate those woes?

Last edited by McGrain; 05-04-2012 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:42 AM   #2
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

Interesting...my favorite parts:

"Regardless, the first three punches Oscar threw in that second round were jabs and Mayweather, suddenly, was banished from the center of the ring."

He darts back with head and body and momentarily gives up the support of his leading foot. When Juan Manuel Marquez fought Mayweather what meager success he had was born of feinting, feinting Mayweather out of position then chasing him with a long right hand. This is a punch that a less experienced fighter wouldn’t chuck at Money if he boxed him for forty rounds, but Marquez knew that once he had feinted Mayweather out of position and into a lean or a slip for a nonexistent punch he became, momentarily, just like any other fighter. For Oscar, it is worth more than it would be worth to Marquez because it is a second layer in his controlling offence. It is not something that scores De La Hoya any points, but it leads Mayweather a little further down the garden path, it’s a secondary way to take control of distance and timing, Mayweather territory.

Cotto showed a good marriage of elements of the pre- and post- Steward stances against Margarito, fighting early in attacking spurts using what Steward had taught him to stay on balance and mobile before widening his stance and sitting down on more punches as he tired later in the fight. This interested me because I remembered Genaro Hernandez talking about how he would fight a rematch with Mayweather after their 1998 super featherweight WBC title confrontation. Genaro felt he had fought the wrong fight that night, that if he were to fight him again, “I’d be the counterpuncher. I’d make him come to me.”

This raised an eyebrow for me:

"Undoubtedly tough, I do not think that Cotto has, for want of a better phrase, elite heart."

I think Cotto's heart, in his prime of the Torres fight as an example, was more than elite, it was extraordinary. Whether he has recaptured that fire remains to be seen.

I think that the parts that mention Cotto's failure to adjust his jab to his laterally-minded dimension disregard the fact that his power punches can now be delivered on the move and off of angles. The DLH plan will not carry him through, the same way it did not carry Oscar through; by the 6th, he can't be planless, he needs to be mobile and confident in exploring other avenues for success. I think the article was great, but left a bit to be desired as to what Cotto could do differently outside of the parameters of a jab-heavy pressure fight. It briefly touches upon Hernandez regretting he didn't force Floyd to take the lead, but stops there and doesn't expand on what else Cotto can offer besides a copied blueprint of a much taller man.

Thanks for posting! Very much enjoyed reading it.
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:30 AM   #3
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

I get the article, makes sense, in theory we could have something here, but...in all honesty I'd take that version of DLH over this version of Cotto. I just don't see what Cotto has or can bring that will trouble floyd.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

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Originally Posted by Bogotazo View Post
Interesting...
Hey Bogot. Glad you liked, surprised too given you've been Cotto's cheerleader #1 around here...thanks.

I'm not going to quote you here but just to deal with some of the stuff you touched upon.

1) Cotto's heart. Like I say, Cotto is tough. A word or two about "elite heart". Elite heart would be an opponent who can't be cracked, basically. Everybody has their limits, but modern boxing doesn't necessarily touch upon elite hearts. Cotto quit to Margarito (there were probably circumstances) but it's probably impossible for you to imagine Muhammad Ali or Henry Armstrong quitting in similar circumstances for a reason: they wouldn't do it. I'm not calling Cotto any names apart from tough - but in the toughest of circumstances I can see him taking a knee without a punch (as he did) or fighting to survive instead of going to war for the win (which he did). Elite hearted fighters are ones that try to find a way to win even when they are clearly beaten at the very highest level.

2) The way you describe Cotto trying to win the fight, that's actually exactly how I expect Cotto to fight, "Cotto showed a good marriage of elements of the pre- and post- Steward stances against Margarito, fighting early in attacking spurts using what Steward had taught him to stay on balance and mobile before widening his stance and sitting down on more punches as he tired later in the fight...Cotto at the very least can try to fight a guerrilla war of his own, trying to mix his swarming and stalking attack with this foraging style." I just don't expect it to work. I'm interested to see what kind of fist he can make of it, don't doubt that.



Thanks again for taking the time, appreciate it.

Last edited by McGrain; 05-04-2012 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:29 PM   #5
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

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Originally Posted by antonio8904 View Post
I get the article, makes sense, in theory we could have something here, but...in all honesty I'd take that version of DLH over this version of Cotto. I just don't see what Cotto has or can bring that will trouble floyd.
Cheers.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:35 PM   #6
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

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Hey Bogot. Glad you liked, surprised too given you've been Mayweather cheerleader #1 around here...thanks.

I'm not going to quote you here but just to deal with some of the stuff you touched upon.

1) Cotto's heart. Like I say, Cotto is tough. A word or two about "elite heart". Elite heart would be an opponent who can't be cracked, basically. Everybody has their limits, but modern boxing doesn't necessarily touch upon elite hearts. Cotto quit to Margarito (there were probably circumstances) but it's probably impossible for you to imagine Muhammad Ali or Henry Armstrong quitting in similar circumstances for a reason: they wouldn't do it. I'm not calling Cotto any names apart from tough - but in the toughest of circumstances I can see him taking a knee without a punch (as he did) or fighting to survive instead of going to war for the win (which he did). Elite hearted fighters are ones that try to find a way to win even when they are clearly beaten at the very highest level.

2) The way you describe Cotto trying to win the fight, that's actually exactly how I expect Cotto to fight, "Cotto showed a good marriage of elements of the pre- and post- Steward stances against Margarito, fighting early in attacking spurts using what Steward had taught him to stay on balance and mobile before widening his stance and sitting down on more punches as he tired later in the fight...Cotto at the very least can try to fight a guerrilla war of his own, trying to mix his swarming and stalking attack with this foraging style." I just don't expect it to work. I'm interested to see what kind of fist he can make of it, don't doubt that.



Thanks again for taking the time, appreciate it.
bogo isn't no Floyd cheerleader. If anything, he has underrated and overlooked some of Mayweather's skills in the past.

Hell no Cotto(e) doesn't have an elite heart. Someone like Joe Frazier had an elite heart.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

Yeah, that's my bad, I meant Cotto's #1 cheerleader. I'll change it.

Frazier's a good example of what I meant.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

I think Mayweather being a 35 yr old part time fighter has to catch up to him sooner or later, & Cotto could be in the right place at the right time here.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Hey Bogot. Glad you liked, surprised too given you've been Cotto's cheerleader #1 around here...thanks.

I'm not going to quote you here but just to deal with some of the stuff you touched upon.

1) Cotto's heart. Like I say, Cotto is tough. A word or two about "elite heart". Elite heart would be an opponent who can't be cracked, basically. Everybody has their limits, but modern boxing doesn't necessarily touch upon elite hearts. Cotto quit to Margarito (there were probably circumstances) but it's probably impossible for you to imagine Muhammad Ali or Henry Armstrong quitting in similar circumstances for a reason: they wouldn't do it. I'm not calling Cotto any names apart from tough - but in the toughest of circumstances I can see him taking a knee without a punch (as he did) or fighting to survive instead of going to war for the win (which he did). Elite hearted fighters are ones that try to find a way to win even when they are clearly beaten at the very highest level.

2) The way you describe Cotto trying to win the fight, that's actually exactly how I expect Cotto to fight, "Cotto showed a good marriage of elements of the pre- and post- Steward stances against Margarito, fighting early in attacking spurts using what Steward had taught him to stay on balance and mobile before widening his stance and sitting down on more punches as he tired later in the fight...Cotto at the very least can try to fight a guerrilla war of his own, trying to mix his swarming and stalking attack with this foraging style." I just don't expect it to work. I'm interested to see what kind of fist he can make of it, don't doubt that.



Thanks again for taking the time, appreciate it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
bogo isn't no Floyd cheerleader. If anything, he has underrated and overlooked some of Mayweather's skills in the past.

Hell no Cotto(e) doesn't have an elite heart. Someone like Joe Frazier had an elite heart.
I suppose I can't help but agree that Cotto really isn't willing to die in there like Ali or Frazier might have been.

In terms of the shift in tactics not working, I suppose that means you value Floyd's pressure over Cotto's effective mobility. That dynamic is what decides it, I believe.

As far as being a cheerleader, I'm a huge fan, and I like the challenge of taking a fighter's mold and stylistically matching it up with an opponent, especially one like Floyd who has the mystique of his aura. Believe me, I appreciate what Floyd does and can do in the ring to a great extent, but so many posters focus on his success without really stopping to think about the actual elements of his style that constitute his identity, so I'm encouraged to remind people he's human and beatable and that boxing is conducted through habituated movements, not vague terms like "speed" and "Ring IQ."

Don't ever hesitate to post more of your work in the future!
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:49 PM   #10
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

Indeed, indeed.

And in the end, that's what that article is about really. How Floyd can be beaten. Tat it's going to be very difficult for Cotto to do it doesn't really change that.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

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Originally Posted by Bogotazo View Post
I suppose I can't help but agree that Cotto really isn't willing to die in there like Ali or Frazier might have been.

In terms of the shift in tactics not working, I suppose that means you value Floyd's pressure over Cotto's effective mobility. That dynamic is what decides it, I believe.

As far as being a cheerleader, I'm a huge fan, and I like the challenge of taking a fighter's mold and stylistically matching it up with an opponent, especially one like Floyd who has the mystique of his aura. Believe me, I appreciate what Floyd does and can do in the ring to a great extent, but so many posters focus on his success without really stopping to think about the actual elements of his style that constitute his identity, so I'm encouraged to remind people he's human and beatable and that boxing is conducted through habituated movements, not vague terms like "speed" and "Ring IQ."

Don't ever hesitate to post more of your work in the future!
don't worry this bothers me too, especially when people talk about power like it's the end all to boxing.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:56 PM   #12
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

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don't worry this bothers me too, especially when people talk about power like it's the end all to boxing.
Word!
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

is floyd still capable of feinting and then throwing the leaping left hook?
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

Really enjoyed reading this thread.
Keep the posts coming
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: A look back at Oscar-Floyd and a breakdown of Cotto-Mayweather

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is floyd still capable of feinting and then throwing the leaping left hook?
From what I've seen, yes.
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