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Old 05-24-2012, 10:13 PM   #61
suriamarsuli
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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Originally Posted by ETM View Post
1. It was 100 degrees or more that day maybe more with the ring lights and all those people packed in there.

2. It was the 15th round of the fastest paced most vicious heavyweight fight ever seen by many.

3. Ali might have been "winning" but he had taken a brutal beating to the body and head especially in the middle rounds up to the 11th. It was one of the most relentless body assaults a man has ever taken in a prize ring.

4. The Larry Holmes fight was a waltz and Holmes was trying like hell to carry Ali that night.
You believed that the Larry Holmes fight was a "waltz" and Holmes was carrying Ali just because he said so?

Nearly everyone on the ringside saw that Larry Holmes was desperately trying to knock him out,Gene Kilroy said that the thought of Holmes carrying Ali was bullshit,that everyone on the ringside clearly saw what he did to Ali was by no mean "carrying" him.

Maybe he wanted to end the fight in an early round KO so that Ali would absorb less punishment.However he did call the referee to intervene,but that's about it.Watching that fight and watching Holmes unloading vicious uppercut and hooks to Ali made the audience sure that he wasn't by any means "carrying" Ali.

To me it was this fight that showed Ali did have the heart of a fighter,he was sick and barely sweating in that condition when everybody around the ringside was sweating.He lasted 10 rounds with Holmes until Angelo Dundee had to called it quits and even argue with Bundini Brown just to stop the fight.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:09 AM   #62
Stevie G
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manilla question

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You believed that the Larry Holmes fight was a "waltz" and Holmes was carrying Ali just because he said so?

Nearly everyone on the ringside saw that Larry Holmes was desperately trying to knock him out,Gene Kilroy said that the thought of Holmes carrying Ali was bullshit,that everyone on the ringside clearly saw what he did to Ali was by no mean "carrying" him.

Maybe he wanted to end the fight in an early round KO so that Ali would absorb less punishment.However he did call the referee to intervene,but that's about it.Watching that fight and watching Holmes unloading vicious uppercut and hooks to Ali made the audience sure that he wasn't by any means "carrying" Ali.

To me it was this fight that showed Ali did have the heart of a fighter,he was sick and barely sweating in that condition when everybody around the ringside was sweating.He lasted 10 rounds with Holmes until Angelo Dundee had to called it quits and even argue with Bundini Brown just to stop the fight.

I concur. Any suggestion that Holmes carried Ali is complete bullshit ! No doubt he did n't relish what he had to do,but Holmes was giving it 100%. For starters,take a look at Holmes' fast start after the opening bell.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:16 AM   #63
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manila question

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I concur. Any suggestion that Holmes carried Ali is complete bullshit ! No doubt he didn't relish what he had to do, but Holmes was giving it 100%. For starters,take a look at Holmes' fast start after the opening bell.
And Larry really let Muhammad have it with both barrels after doubling him over in round nine, and prudently backed off when it became obvious he simply couldn't finish it then on his own. Ali's ability to take a punch remained intact.

Speaking of Holmes, Larry had less left after 15 rounds against Norton than Muhammad had after Manila. Ali's "collapse" was merely a drop to one knee, and he rose back up from that knee to have his hand raised as the official winner before resuming that position, interrupting Don Dunphy's interview in the process. Smoke came over to shake hands with him right before that interview begins, a very classy understated fleeting moment of sportsmanship between both that was unfortunately mostly obscured by the crowding in the ring. Dunphy notes Frazier coming over at 7:39 of the footage McVey contributed. Muhammad turns to his right, then extends his arm forward then back towards Joe upon hearing Don mention Frazier's arrival. (Joe may have also tapped Ali's shoulder at this moment.) The back of a corner man blocks the actual handshake from the camera, but we see Smoke as he releases Muhammad's hand and turns back towards his corner at 7:42.

Larry not only did drop flat on his back after Norton, but he needed help holding his arms aloft after the decision was announced, and was too exhausted and hustled away too quickly for Cosell to interview him, as desperately as Howard tried to get that scoop. Ali was perfectly lucid in his interview with Dunphy. He rose up from his stool and raised his arms without any need for assistance when Futch stopped it.

The story goes that he wanted to quit in 1964 when blinded against Liston, something Dundee absolutely wouldn't allow him to consider. It absolutely wasn't going to happen in Manila either. Muhammad wanted to go out for round 11 against Holmes, an utterly hopeless situation. We can't ignore that Angelo, Bundini and Pacheco were in that corner, that Futch wasn't operating in a vacuum.

Frazier could no longer protect himself against those rights. He did bounce up from his stool with more dismayed energy when Futch stopped it than a relieved Ali did upon Dundee giving him the news, but again, Milt Bailey said both were reduced to virtually slapping at this point, and he was in Joe's corner. Muhammad certainly knew Smoke's late round FOTC power was completely gone by this stage.

We're not discussing McCall quitting against Lennox despite Greg Page's entreaties, or Bert "My head is buzzing" Cooper after two rounds with Foreman, or Kenty packing it in after two rounds with Elizondo. The idea that Ali would forfeit that precious prize after all the hell he'd gone through to regain and keep it (especially that specific night) is wildly ridiculous and rampant revisionist speculation. Duran quit against SRL in New Orleans because he needed to take a shit. When Muhammad desperately needed to take a piss after 10 rounds against Blue Lewis, he risked the humiliation of yellow trunks to gain a stoppage just 1:15 into the very next round.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:45 AM   #64
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Default Re: Thrilla in Manila question

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And Larry really let Muhammad have it with both barrels after doubling him over in round nine, and prudently backed off when it became obvious he simply couldn't finish it then on his own. Ali's ability to take a punch remained intact.

Speaking of Holmes, Larry had less left after 15 rounds against Norton than Muhammad had after Manila. Ali's "collapse" was merely a drop to one knee, and he rose back up from that knee to have his hand raised as the official winner before resuming that position, interrupting Don Dunphy's interview in the process. Smoke came over to shake hands with him right before that interview begins, a very classy understated fleeting moment of sportsmanship between both that was unfortunately mostly obscured by the crowding in the ring. Dunphy notes Frazier coming over at 7:39 of the footage McVey contributed. Muhammad turns to his right, then extends his arm forward then back towards Joe upon hearing Don mention Frazier's arrival. (Joe may have also tapped Ali's shoulder at this moment.) The back of a corner man blocks the actual handshake from the camera, but we see Smoke as he releases Muhammad's hand and turns back towards his corner at 7:42.

Larry not only did drop flat on his back after Norton, but he needed help holding his arms aloft after the decision was announced, and was too exhausted and hustled away too quickly for Cosell to interview him, as desperately as Howard tried to get that scoop. Ali was perfectly lucid in his interview with Dunphy. He rose up from his stool and raised his arms without any need for assistance when Futch stopped it.

The story goes that he wanted to quit in 1964 when blinded against Liston, something Dundee absolutely wouldn't allow him to consider. It absolutely wasn't going to happen in Manila either. Muhammad wanted to go out for round 11 against Holmes, an utterly hopeless situation. We can't ignore that Angelo, Bundini and Pacheco were in that corner, that Futch wasn't operating in a vacuum.

Frazier could no longer protect himself against those rights. He did bounce up from his stool with more dismayed energy when Futch stopped it than a relieved Ali did upon Dundee giving him the news, but again, Milt Bailey said both were reduced to virtually slapping at this point, and he was in Joe's corner. Muhammad certainly knew Smoke's late round FOTC power was completely gone by this stage.

We're not discussing McCall quitting against Lennox despite Greg Page's entreaties, or Bert "My head is buzzing" Cooper after two rounds with Foreman, or Kenty packing it in after two rounds with Elizondo. The idea that Ali would forfeit that precious prize after all the hell he'd gone through to regain and keep it (especially that specific night) is wildly ridiculous and rampant revisionist speculation. Duran quit against SRL in New Orleans because he needed to take a shit. When Muhammad desperately needed to take a piss after 10 rounds against Blue Lewis, he risked the humiliation of yellow trunks to gain a stoppage just 1:15 into the very next round.
Good post ! I hope Muhammad got to the toilet in time after the Lewis fight. There were crowds in that Croke Park venue
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