Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late? - Page 10

devon · 06-03-2012, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surf-Bat

He's relying on what hundreds of eyewitnesses have said. That should be conclusive enough, wouldn't you say?

Some things we need to be able to see to know. For example we cannot know how fast he was in comparison to other fighters as all we know is based on peoples opinions. So we can't compare his skills to fighters that he never fought.

Surf-Bat · 06-03-2012, 03:49 AM

[quote=devon;12999758]Some things we need to be able to see to know. For example we cannot know how fast he was in comparison to other fighters as all we know is based on peoples opinions.

Yes and no. I think we can assume that he was faster than Bernard Hopkins and Marvin Hagler simply because NOT ONE PERSON has ever said that Marv or BHop were the fastest fighters they ever saw. Several said that very thing about Greb.

There were people alive when Ray Robinson was fighting who also saw Greb and never wavered in their opinion that Harry was the fastest they'd seen.

That's hard to ignore.

smitty78 · 06-03-2012, 04:21 AM

[quote=Surf-Bat;12999823]
Quote:

Originally Posted by devon

Some things we need to be able to see to know. For example we cannot know how fast he was in comparison to other fighters as all we know is based on peoples opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by devon

Yes and no. I think we can assume that he was faster than Bernard Hopkins and Marvin Hagler simply because NOT ONE PERSON has ever said that Marv or BHop were the fastest fighters they ever saw. Several said that very thing about Greb.

No you can't just assume this.

Jesse Owens times were considered lightning back then are now considered slow today. Perceptions change over time. Even though he probably was faster I doubt it was a fast as you think.

There were people alive when Ray Robinson was fighting who also saw Greb and never wavered in their opinion that Harry was the fastest they'd seen.

That's hard to ignore

No. These people like Fleischer? The " they were so much better in my day" syndrome doesn't discriminate. It knows no boundaries, sport, colour, creed and is particularly prevalent in boxing. People just so badly want to believe these magical fairytales are always true when the majority of the human race just talk a whole heap of bullshit.
.

smitty78 · 06-03-2012, 04:23 AM

[quote=Surf-Bat;12999681]
Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty78

He throws fast punches from all angles for the whole fight like Pacquiao. Just less power

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty78

Definitely more unorthodox than Pacquiao. Greb was often called a "freak" due to this radically unorthodox approach. You don't usually hear the same comments made about Manny.

so his movement would want to be a lot better which is really saying something.

Greb was described as "rubber-knee'd". Very bouncy and mobile. By all accounts he had excellent movement. Gene Tunney attested to that after their first fight.

As you see with Pacman this style can be timed by a great counter puncher and made to look ordinary. Just as Tunney did to Greb as Greb's whole defense was based on attack and movement.

Are you implying that Tunney made Greb look "ordinary"?

In patches yes I am implying this.

Senya13 · 06-03-2012, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Greb's unique style was his own, never to be duplicated again...

It wasn't unique in his own time. Johnny Dundee and Memphis Pal Moore had similar styles.

burt bienstock · 06-03-2012, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senya13

It wasn't unique in his own time. Johnny Dundee and Memphis Pal Moore had similar styles.

S, I suppose Johnny Dundee as featherweight came closest to Greb's style, though not as unorthodox in his tactics...But picture a 160 pound strong middleweight as fast as a featherweight and there you have Harry Greb...Ah, Johnny Dundee,a forgotten great from the past !

Surf-Bat · 06-03-2012, 01:52 PM

[quote=smitty78;12999881]No you can't just assume this.

Jesse Owens times were considered lightning back then are now considered slow today. Perceptions change over time. Even though he probably was faster I doubt it was a fast as you think.

Watch the available film of all the fighters whom Greb fought. There are several. By ALL accounts Harry was faster than all of them. Jack Dempsey said he was faster than Benny Leonard.

No. These people like Fleischer? The " they were so much better in my day" syndrome doesn't discriminate. It knows no boundaries, sport, colour, creed and is particularly prevalent in boxing. People just so badly want to believe these magical fairytales are always true

I see. So everyone who saw Greb and unanimously testify to his speed are all simply suffering from "things were so much better in my day" syndrome?

Again, watch the films of the fighters Greb jousted with and keep in mind as you do that Greb was considered MUCH faster than all of them.

when the majority of the human race just talk a whole heap of bullshit.

Oh, you mean like this?:

He ducked the Black Irish Les Darcy.

I tend to think Berg and his friends of Israel...

Both quotes attributable to you.

Surf-Bat · 06-03-2012, 01:56 PM

[quote=smitty78;12999890]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ;12999681

[b]

In patches yes I am implying this.

In very slim patches.

Tunney had his hands full with Greb every time out with the exception of their last fight. And that was more a case of one-eyed Harry getting older and losing a lot of his pep (he had a LOT more mileage on the odometer than Gene).

PetethePrince · 06-03-2012, 09:27 PM

Only read 2 pages in. I don't tend to get people rating Langford over Greb though, but the TS topic is something I've thought of before. It's an interesting questions.

smitty78 · 06-04-2012, 07:06 AM

[quote=Surf-Bat;13002719]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty78

No you can't just assume this.

Jesse Owens times were considered lightning back then are now considered slow today. Perceptions change over time. Even though he probably was faster I doubt it was a fast as you think.

Watch the available film of all the fighters whom Greb fought. There are several. By ALL accounts Harry was faster than all of them. Jack Dempsey said he was faster than Benny Leonard.

No. These people like Fleischer? The " they were so much better in my day" syndrome doesn't discriminate. It knows no boundaries, sport, colour, creed and is particularly prevalent in boxing. People just so badly want to believe these magical fairytales are always true

I see. So everyone who saw Greb and unanimously testify to his speed are all simply suffering from "things were so much better in my day" syndrome?

Again, watch the films of the fighters Greb jousted with and keep in mind as you do that Greb was considered MUCH faster than all of them.

when the majority of the human race just talk a whole heap of bullshit.

Oh, you mean like this?:

He ducked the Black Irish Les Darcy.

I tend to think Berg and his friends of Israel...

Both quotes attributable to you.

That's right, and they're great fucking quotes.

bman100 · 06-04-2012, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Only read 2 pages in. I don't tend to get people rating Langford over Greb though, but the TS topic is something I've thought of before. It's an interesting questions.

I wonder if anyone really has a definitive answer. maybe his incomplete record which had blanks filled in, in recent years (all them ND bouts) offered a different idea about him. beyond that?

even for years after he died he was not seen as the number 1. its only very recent from what i can tell.

Shake · 06-07-2012, 11:40 AM

I wonder if Greb could sell tickets when up against a no-namer. Maybe his style made for messy fights.

This was all before close-ups and slow-motion replay. There's a lot of fighters that wouldn't be worth watching if it wasn't for that.

Maybe he needed that to be fully appreciated in his time.

06-03-2012, 03:49 AM	#137
Surf-Bat Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,518 vCash: 500	Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late? [quote=devon;12999758]Some things we need to be able to see to know. For example we cannot know how fast he was in comparison to other fighters as all we know is based on peoples opinions. Yes and no. I think we can assume that he was faster than Bernard Hopkins and Marvin Hagler simply because NOT ONE PERSON has ever said that Marv or BHop were the fastest fighters they ever saw. Several said that very thing about Greb. There were people alive when Ray Robinson was fighting who also saw Greb and never wavered in their opinion that Harry was the fastest they'd seen. That's hard to ignore.
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06-03-2012, 01:52 PM	#142
Surf-Bat Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,518 vCash: 500	Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late? [quote=smitty78;12999881]No you can't just assume this. Jesse Owens times were considered lightning back then are now considered slow today. Perceptions change over time. Even though he probably was faster I doubt it was a fast as you think. Watch the available film of all the fighters whom Greb fought. There are several. By ALL accounts Harry was faster than all of them. Jack Dempsey said he was faster than Benny Leonard. No. These people like Fleischer? The " they were so much better in my day" syndrome doesn't discriminate. It knows no boundaries, sport, colour, creed and is particularly prevalent in boxing. People just so badly want to believe these magical fairytales are always true I see. So everyone who saw Greb and unanimously testify to his speed are all simply suffering from "things were so much better in my day" syndrome? Again, watch the films of the fighters Greb jousted with and keep in mind as you do that Greb was considered MUCH faster than all of them. when the majority of the human race just talk a whole heap of bullshit. Oh, you mean like this?: He ducked the Black Irish Les Darcy. I tend to think Berg and his friends of Israel... Both quotes attributable to you. Last edited by Surf-Bat; 06-03-2012 at 02:08 PM.
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06-03-2012, 09:27 PM	#144
PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded East Side VIP Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 15,227 vCash: 1200	Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late? Only read 2 pages in. I don't tend to get people rating Langford over Greb though, but the TS topic is something I've thought of before. It's an interesting questions.
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06-07-2012, 11:40 AM	#147
Shake Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,335 vCash: 75	Re: Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late? I wonder if Greb could sell tickets when up against a no-namer. Maybe his style made for messy fights. This was all before close-ups and slow-motion replay. There's a lot of fighters that wouldn't be worth watching if it wasn't for that. Maybe he needed that to be fully appreciated in his time.
Top