A guy who trains in wing chun, told me he's dropped so many boxers using it.

[CrimsonBeast]

wing chun is pure impractical shit and here is the proof. Bruce lee was taught by the most famous wing chun teacher (ip man) and yet felt the need to improve on it and become "formless". nobody with wing chun has made it into mma and they should if its real even though some moves arent allowed. No human alive has the reflexes, foresight and timing to use such absurd dragon ball z bullshit in actual combat

[Drunkenboxer]

What a dick puncher!












Kung Fu fighters are often dick punchers.

[EDDIE FUTCH]

Originally Posted by Above Deck

...Wing Chun is a soft art based around defence, its not an attacking art
like Karate (striking) or boxing, but could be used effectively to defend
against those arts, its a defensive art.

Um, not really, as has been mentioned. I'd have to say it's one of the more 'hard'/streetfight-like styles. Lots of (perceived) 'dirty strikes' too - eye gouges, throat strikes, groin kicks etc.

Originally Posted by Cableaddict

...
However, I know from personal experience that martial arts training can help a boxer's defense. I was an amateur MW, and had some training in Aikido. I was far from an expert, but I always felt my training helped me with reflexes, body movement (flexibility) and most importantly: Balance. I went 20-0 (before retiring @ 20-1) mostly because I was very hard to hit.

I'm surprised that such training hasn't been adopted by high-level boxers. (or maybe it has, and they just don't talk about it?) Aikido is particularly defense-oriented, but all of the arts should have benefit.

Cableaddict, did you feel you gained any help in parrying or pivoting (eg. in a shoulder-roll manner like James Toney?) Or more importantly, in footwork (I hear ya on the balance --> shifting weight from foot to foot)

For you
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aobp1CKYERQ&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aobp1CKYERQ&feature=related[/ame]

It's a long video. And there's nothing really on it that illustrates the effectiveness of it (the students actually look like they're dancing a stiff waltz!) But does support the fact that Tyson made a detour to look at the footwork of other arts.
- Tyson greeted at the beginning, boring stuff follows
- Shioda Sensei footage from 6:50 onwards (that was always my problem with some of these schools/dojos/kwoons. Too much reverence shown to the teacher, making them seem superhuman. I was not taught this way. I was taught by some hard-assed Mexican guy who believed in practical drills ala (From 2:49 onwards):
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI&feature=relmfu"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI&feature=relmfu[/ame]

In the end, I wussied out and stopped attending classes (was getting terrible brain pain (read: headaches) and constant nosebleeds (from no physical hits to the head))

Originally Posted by elchivito

Ipman was a legend. He was kicking everybody's ass regardless of style or size a true badass. I'm sure for the most part an expert wing chun practioner "might" have an upperhand vs an amateur/beginner boxer just as a pro boxer would over an amatuer wing chun student. My experience was the opposite. I'm 5'7" sparred with a wing chun student who was 6'1"-6'2" and a southpaw on top of that. Had good speed tried to counter everything I did, but tho being much smaller I was outjabbing the guy. He couldn't deal with the bobbing and weaving and especially once I started pressuring on the inside he had no space to work with he was in my zone now. I just remember he tagged me once good with a clean shot, I returned the favor with right hand leads and bodyshots and it was over in 3 rounds once he gave his back to me he quit. Very fast, awkward to fight against, but maybe his teacher might of been a better match. It depends on the person I dont believe in any style being better. A 1 yr novice isn't beating a 15 yr vet unless they some special talent and even still I doubt that.

Man, kudos, you collapsed his 'bridge'. That's why I've 'adapted', and adopted most of streetfighting's/boxing's 'shoulders hunched over 'cage'' - I've accepted that I have shit reflexes. Unless you have Anderson Silver-like Matrix reflexes, have an above average fight-counter strategy and/or years of (chi sao) hand sensitivity training, that cat-pawing flurry is not going to work once someone breaches your mid-range and invades your zone. Something Leon explains more succinctly below:

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't think he's lying. Did he mention whether he fought boxers inside of a boxing ring or in backyards?

They shine mid-range with their unusual rapid punching that overwhelms people who don't know how to deal with it. Boxers primarily train for other boxers. In boxing, punches are extended much further with more body behind it unlike wing chun. With how wing chun guys punch they have less recoil time between punches than boxers.

I'm guessing you guys got into a boxing ring to have sparred or fought?

Wing Chun guys have very static heads and rely heavily on parrying for defense.

I'm glad to hear that your head movement and inside fighting worked successfully. This isn't stuff they see often and consequently have less experience dealing with. The element of surprise must have caught him off guard.

I found that str8 punches down the pipe at their body work well due to their stance. I didn't felt too comfortable immediately going for str8 shots upstairs with them due to how they stick their hands out in their stance and create so much distance because of it. Feints can work well since wing chun guys are parry happy. Pivoting is a must since they are very good head on.

Wow, you know your stuff.

Agreed. There are some major flaws in WC (mebbe I'm just a crap student!). The square-on stance IMHO is one of them. Someone rushing at you - sure, the theory is that you can elbow-parry imbalance them or pull them into an elbow/shoulder strike but what if you get someone like GSP shooting in?

The inner outer Gates concept also is workable in theory but often leads to these frantic wind-milling demonstrations where footwork could have minimised the threat. Sigh...I guess it's a long-winded way of saying warriors are born more than made: someone dogged like Sifu Wong Shun Leung, with his Jack Dempsey hellhound qualities, would've kicked ass probably whichever art he chose. Interesting vid below of him - forewarned, it's in Chinese (Mandarin) which I don't understand, but most of the points get through in gestures and demos:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvsFSickRMs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvsFSickRMs[/ame]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBeast

wing chun is pure impractical shit and here is the proof. Bruce lee was taught by the most famous wing chun teacher (ip man) and yet felt the need to improve on it and become "formless". nobody with wing chun has made it into mma and they should if its real even though some moves arent allowed. No human alive has the reflexes, foresight and timing to use such absurd dragon ball z bullshit in actual combat

Contrary to popular belief, Bruce was very much the neglected student. He was so dismissed that the Grandmaster only ever met him a few times. He was handed off to one of the senior students to teach and even then, he wasn't taught the full form. Not saying WC is the bee's knees but Mr Lee was never qualified to be the ultimate example of its effectiveness.


NB. I'm so glad there's been none of the Choy Lay Futt v. WC 'My kungfu is better than your kungfu' BS that plagues gungfu forums ( admiringly at motownsiu)

NBB. WC likes: concept of jamming/intercepting; low no-fancy kicks. Dislikes: weird stance, no (effective) uppercuts, no head movement (relies entirely on footwork, 'gates' to protect head)

Originally Posted by EDDIE FUTCH

Contrary to popular belief, Bruce was very much the neglected student. He was so dismissed that the Grandmaster only ever met him a few times. He was handed off to one of the senior students to teach and even then, he wasn't taught the full form. Not saying WC is the bee's knees but Mr Lee was never qualified to be the ultimate example of its effectiveness.

Bruce Lee spent time training under senior student called Wong Sheung Leung. Wong Sheung Leung played a big part in putting Wing Chun on the map. Largely because, as you alluded to above, he was one very tough, hard-ass individual and used to punch on in the street on a fairly regular basis, and invariably win.

Wong Sheung Leung is a good example of the point I was making earlier in this thread >>>

It's as much to do with the fighting capabilities of the individual as it is to do with what he's trained in. There are street fighters who could go in and dominate most martial arts in a short time because they are just fundamentally bad ass and dangerous.

[robert ungurean]

Originally Posted by Enigma1

I met this guy at the gym, and he's trained in Martial arts for many years. His main art was Wing Chun, which was the first ever martial art that Bruce Lee learned. Anyway, while talking to him, he was showing me different moves from Wing Chun. And he told me that he's dropped so many boxers using Wing Chun.

Do you think he's telling the truth? He seemed genuine.

He's full of shit.
Although not related to fighting a boxer, I remember when Igor Zinoviev fought the Wing Chun guy who they showed takeing on multiple opponents in the preview. Igor beat the shit outta him in about a minute.
If its a legit boxer the Wing Chun guy doesnt have a chance.

Originally Posted by robert ungurean

He's full of shit.
Although not related to fighting a boxer, I remember when Igor Zinoviev fought the Wing Chun guy who they showed takeing on multiple opponents in the preview. Igor beat the shit outta him in about a minute.
If its a legit boxer the Wing Chun guy doesnt have a chance.

Early days of MMA that one.

I don't think Wing Chun includes any ground fighting. So once it hit the ground it was probably all over for Steve Faulkner. Might have been more interesting if they'd stayed on their feet for a while. >>>

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyHbHcrfWy4[/ame]

Fighting ability plays a big part in fights though, and there would have been boxers around who Faulkner probably could have beaten.

[CrimsonBeast]

somebody post a video of a wing chun guy throwing a proper punch if u can find one

[dranon]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7F-R8U-QLQ[/ame]


No......

[Boxmaster]

Originally Posted by Vergilius

Yep - I sure have. I'm not saying there isn't good stuff in there, just that a martial arts gym and a serious boxing ring are at two different levels of competitiveness (often, not always). The 2 things MMA guys have that boxer's struggle to deal with are leg kicks and wrestling - the UFC HW Champion is pretty much a boxer with good defence against those two techniques. Can't think of a single Win Chun guy who has done well in mma

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZa-JSdaDBQ[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K6WZhWp7pg[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtQdCuxuWXw[/ame]
The guy in black is in the Wing Chun stance and is using basic Wing Chun techniques.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF5BKSivkS8[/ame]

As you see it's all about range. In close range Wing Chun destroys boxing but at that mid range where the boxers jab can reach you but your Wing Chun trapping techniques can't reach them then you're stuck in a sort of kick boxing range which favors the boxer.

Benny the Jet [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT-Lkqz_dnk[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN0d9jBWf7M[/ame]

This guy would beat the crap out of most people. One of the greatest fighters of all time.

[Boxmaster]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTWkm-3jL0Y[/ame]

In real life Jackie wouldn't last 60 seconds.

[Primate]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBeast

wing chun is pure impractical shit

This. I rate it up there with Tae Kwon Do and Aikido in terms of it's looking good to usefulness ratio.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Primate

This. I rate it up there with Tae Kwon Do and Aikido in terms of it's looking good to usefulness ratio.

Add Wu Shu to that list as well and Capoeira. All very theatrical.

That said i did Wing Chun as a kid. And anyone that can dismiss it obviously doesn't know too much about it. My death star camel clutch one inch punch has felled many a man. Couple that with my wooden dummy technique and i used to be in immortal territory.

[EDDIE FUTCH]

Originally Posted by CrimsonBeast

somebody post a video of a wing chun guy throwing a proper punch if u can find one

Pfft. Even Leon knows WC guys are not aiming for Julian Jackson shots.

Quote - "..Boxers primarily train for other boxers. In boxing, punches are extended much further with more body behind it unlike wing chun. With how wing chun guys punch they have less recoil time between punches than boxers."

The chain punches are to discombobulate and bridge the gap (for elbow strikes, throat rips, eye gouges etc), not to KD/KO. That's why they won't work against a (well experienced) boxer, who's used to getting double jabs or 1-2s thrown at their face the whole day.

I second Boxmaster, Benny was the Duran of kickboxing.

[boranbkk]

Originally Posted by EDDIE FUTCH

Pfft. Even Leon knows WC guys are not aiming for Julian Jackson shots.

Quote - "..Boxers primarily train for other boxers. In boxing, punches are extended much further with more body behind it unlike wing chun. With how wing chun guys punch they have less recoil time between punches than boxers."

The chain punches are to discombobulate and bridge the gap (for elbow strikes, throat rips, eye gouges etc), not to KD/KO. That's why they won't work against a (well experienced) boxer, who's used to getting double jabs or 1-2s thrown at their face the whole day.

I second Boxmaster, Benny was the Duran of kickboxing.

The Duran of the Kickboxing world minus Thailand.

I'm no Benny hater, he was a pioneer, I love and admire his fighting spirit, but let's not get too carried away. Like most American, European and to some extent Japanese "kickboxers" they avoided/ducked Thailand the home of "kickboxing" for most of the early era of the sport outside of S.E.Asia. When alot of these guys came up against the real McCoy they came up short except for a few noticable standouts for example Mitsuo Shima and Toshio Fujiwara to name a couple, but alot of their wins over Thais in Japan have since been exposed as fixed fights for the Japanese fans. I'm not dissing Benny just trying to get some balance, he may have been the Duran of the Kickboxing world, but minus Thailand. Any top 20 Thai fighter in that era beats Benny, he had trouble with low kicks, knnes nad elbows. The gulf between Thailand and the rest of the world is still huge now let alone back then.

His 1978 fight against Prayout Sittiboonlert in Japan (Starts at 2.28 after his whipping of Japanese fighter):


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHk_y_y9wsM[/ame]

[CrimsonBeast]

Originally Posted by boranbkk

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I wish we could hear the fight sounds in boxing like you can hear em in this video