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Old 06-26-2012, 11:42 PM   #31
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

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Originally Posted by he grant View Post
What channel ? Where ?
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg_H9zWqVLA[/ame]
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:11 AM   #32
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

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Notice also how Rickard does not get involved, but rather allows them to fight inside and work themselves out of clinches. Tex Rickard with zero refereeing experience does a better job of allowing the fighters to fight than 90% of referees today. Refs do not need to incessantly break fighters. Infighting is part of boxing, but with refs constantly breaking fighters today, it is practically a dead or at least dying art. In our gym, we NEVER tell fighters to break. We allow them to work themselves free from clinches and work short inside shots.
My coach used to say, "You throw till echo of the break."

There are so many modern fights spoiled by not letting fighters fight out of breaks or do inside work. One of the supposed reasons is that it doesn't pack a lot of entertainment value. Another is that the powers that be want to protect the house fighter who doesn't like the rough stuff. The best recent example (and a needless one at that) is Joe Cortez in the Mayweather-Hatton match. Mayweather was almost assuredly going to win, but Hatton was allowed no action inside where he excelled. Everytime the action got close, Cortez put his bought-and-paid-for paws into the action.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:16 AM   #33
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

Ketchel knocked O'Brien out Cold Twice. Burns couldn't put that turkey away despite going 50 rounds with him. Goes to show you how much of a better hitter Ketchel was than Burns.
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:58 PM   #34
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

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Ketchel knocked O'Brien out Cold Twice. Burns couldn't put that turkey away despite going 50 rounds with him. Goes to show you how much of a better hitter Ketchel was than Burns.
Pretty hard to knock someone out when they either hug you like their mama or turn their back and run like a scared rabbit....

O'Brien didn't fear Ketchel, but he was terrified of Tommy Burns.

As for Jeffries, he was indeed a shell of the powerhouse he had been. Many of his friends who watched his training tried to talk him out of the fight with Johnson. Even so, in a 20 round contest when Jeffries was at his best, the odds are Johnson at his best would have been good enough to outpoint the methodical Boilermaker.

...
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Old 06-28-2012, 05:24 PM   #35
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

Jeffries was a shell here, much like Louis was a shell verses Marciano.
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Old 06-30-2012, 02:26 PM   #36
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

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Indeed. Nobody is questioning Johnson's stamina.

The one time that Johnson knew he was not in condition to go 45 rounds, he took the fight to his opponent in an effort to force a stoppage, eventually tiring himself out against a larger man.

The point was only made to strenghten the case that one needed to be able to conserve his energy in such a long contest, thus his conservative style.
Johnson fought the right fight against Jeffries. I wonder if the change in tactics for the Willard fight was because he was sure his own conditioning would let him down, or if he underestimated Willard (who turned out to have exceptional conditioning and toughness) and just wanted to get the fight over with. Could be a combination of all of them.

Fast forward a few decades to Robinson-Maxim. If Sugar Ray's team had checked up on their history and seen the right and wrong ways to fight in insane weather conditions, the Maxim fight very well could've ended in their favor.
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Old 07-01-2012, 02:39 PM   #37
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

McGrain posted a link to Fitzsimmons reactions to the Johnson-Jeffries fight, a day after the fight. Though he favors Jeffries if they'd been at their best, he actually speaks very well of Johnson.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Bob Fitzsimmons on Jeffries versus Johnson, one day after the fight

Jeffries was not there. He looked great. I never saw him looking better; but he left his vitality on the road. He worked himself out training for thisi fight and when he got into the ring it was without his vim.

He wasn't even a quarter of the man he was when he went against me. It was the most pitiful sight I have ever seen to see that man, once the greatest of us all, lying feebly on the floor trying weakly to get up. I felt so sorry at the spectacle that I cried like a baby. I felt like leaping into the ring. If I Johnson had met the Jeffries I had met there would have been a different story to tell. But there's no use in speaking as to what might have happened. It is all over now.

In the first round I thought Jeffries had the shade better of it but he did not display the aggression I expected of him. I thought he would rush Johnson. The second and third rounds were about the same and I kept waiting for Jeffries to display his old tactics, the irresistable tactics that beat me. After the fourth, I realised that Jeffries was not Jeffries any longer.

As far as Johnson is concerned, I say, the king is dead, long live the king. He is a big, strong, clean fighter with a powerful punch. He is one of the cleverest fighters we ever had. I used to think he was only a defensive fighter. He showed today he was an offensive fighter. When he wants to be he can be terribly aggressive. I believe that if he had forced the fighting it would not have gone further than the fourth.

But Johnson works along his own plans. He fought a clever, cool and masterly battle. He made me change my opinion of him as a fighter.

I don't think there is a man in the wolrd that would have a chance against Johnson in the ring. But he was a weakling compared to the Jeffries of old. He is a terrific hitter, a clever blocker, and one of the most dangerous aggressive fighters the ring has ever seen.
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Old 07-01-2012, 02:41 PM   #38
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

Bob Fitzsimmons: "In the first round I thought Jeffries had the shade better of it but he did not display the aggression I expected of him. I thought he would rush Johnson."

Rickard said something similar -- that usually Jeffries came right at an opponent; when they came out at the start and Johnson saw Jeffries hesitating and moving to the side, Johnson's eyes got really big ....
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:00 PM   #39
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

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It's a 45 round fight at altitude under the hot Nevada sun in July. With such a potentially great length to fight, this is essentially a fight to the finish. If you think that is easy, take a buddy to Reno, Nevada sometime on July 4 and try to box in the outdoors at 3 p.m. in a fight to the finish. Good luck. I've lived in Nevada in the summer, and believe me, I don't want to walk around outside for more than five minutes, let alone fight.

It pays to be efficient and methodical under such circumstances. They didn't give a crap about points boxing. It was all about effective lands that would eventually lead to a KO, and preventing your foe from doing the same to you.

Johnson is clever and cautious, not allowing Jeff to land anything, and quite frankly doesn't allow him to get off very often, and does not allow him to fire or cleanly land anything meaningful. His defense is very efficient, raising his hands or suppressing or clinching or moving or rolling or leaning away at just the right moment and at just the right distance, doing so with no more energy than necessary.

Jack doesn't waste himself on combos, rarely throwing more than one at a time, or no more than two, and quickly defends, clinches, or suppresses any counters. But he is very fast, and that is not sped-up footage. If you notice, the referee's movements are slow and natural. When Johnson fires, it is as fast as lightning, and sneaky too. Sometimes you can barely see the punches. He has some nice short hooks that are hard to see coming, and his uppercuts are short, blazing fast and snappy, and even harder to see coming, and he's rocking the head of a very large and strong man. Not exciting, but very effective. It is a methodical dismantling of a bigger man. His reactions are so fast, but he's also so calm and relaxed and minimalist that you may not realize just how blazing his speed and reactions are.

And notice how when Jeff advances, Johnson knows how to step or slide just out of range, or quickly move in to suppress or fire something before either clinches. This is something which many can't understand or appreciate unless and until they or their favorite fighter has been in there with a guy who can do these things, and then after they are defeated you come to appreciate it. Not what you might want to pay to see, but it works. Put a very exciting offensive fighter in there with this guy and just watch them get totally neutralized, and picked at consistently round after round with crisp shots here and there until they wilt. That's what Johnson did to guys, and what he did to Jeffries.
great post, I'd just like to again remind people of the poor film footage reality!

look at Black & White pictures in the paper or periodicals that are sometimes "fuzzy or not fully clear" for proper detail. Then one day you find the same picture damn near perfect, it always amazes and brings the perfect perspective into reality... and they look great, normal, just like us.

the same with watching some shitty old film footage, then suddenly there's a different shot, usually from ringside looking up or a level close up roll, and presto, the fighters look suddenly better and just what we expect to see, and of course for that spell better movement and fighting, and then the film goes back to shit.

and lets not forget this, most of it IS SHIT, it's not an accurate depiction, and they just don't look that great, but of course they where just like us, when filmed or veiwed right.

And that again is proven true when some proper old gems show up, like some Canzoneri or Lynch or that other one I put up before, can't even remember who it was.

the FILMING IS SHIT, not the fighters!
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:51 PM   #40
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

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great post, I'd just like to again remind people of the poor film footage reality!

look at Black & White pictures in the paper or periodicals that are sometimes "fuzzy or not fully clear" for proper detail. Then one day you find the same picture damn near perfect, it always amazes and brings the perfect perspective into reality... and they look great, normal, just like us.

the same with watching some shitty old film footage, then suddenly there's a different shot, usually from ringside looking up or a level close up roll, and presto, the fighters look suddenly better and just what we expect to see, and of course for that spell better movement and fighting, and then the film goes back to shit.

and lets not forget this, most of it IS SHIT, it's not an accurate depiction, and they just don't look that great, but of course they where just like us, when filmed or veiwed right.

And that again is proven true when some proper old gems show up, like some Canzoneri or Lynch or that other one I put up before, can't even remember who it was.

the FILMING IS SHIT, not the fighters!

Sometimes the filming wasn't very good; sometimes the original filming was good, but it's been copied many times, or copied onto smaller stock, or has deteriorated, or isn't shown at a fitting speed, or isn't being shown with a silent aperature (causing one edge of the image to be cut off).
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:14 PM   #41
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

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Sometimes the filming wasn't very good; sometimes the original filming was good, but it's been copied many times, or copied onto smaller stock, or has deteriorated, or isn't shown at a fitting speed, or isn't being shown with a silent aperature (causing one edge of the image to be cut off).
exactly, yes this too, therefore making the film shite, but the fighters NOT!
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:31 PM   #42
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

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Johnson was an exceptional fighter, not simply a man of his time but a timeless man ... he easily could have adjusted his style for today and been better on a pound for pound basis than the best Toney, Byrd of Hopkins ...
Exactly.

The man was still taking on the best contenders years after he retired
and was amazing anyone in attendance at Stillmans or the Catskills gym.
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Old 07-02-2012, 05:18 PM   #43
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

How much weight did Jeffries lose going into the Johnson fight, and how quickly? Past his best or not this had to deplete him significantly if he dropped weight too fast.
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Old 07-02-2012, 05:24 PM   #44
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
My coach used to say, "You throw till echo of the break."

There are so many modern fights spoiled by not letting fighters fight out of breaks or do inside work. One of the supposed reasons is that it doesn't pack a lot of entertainment value. Another is that the powers that be want to protect the house fighter who doesn't like the rough stuff. The best recent example (and a needless one at that) is Joe Cortez in the Mayweather-Hatton match. Mayweather was almost assuredly going to win, but Hatton was allowed no action inside where he excelled. Everytime the action got close, Cortez put his bought-and-paid-for paws into the action.
I'm not sure that's fair on Cortez, Cortez referee'd Hatton-Castillo, where Hatton was referred to as 'Hook and hold Ricky Hatton' under his watch. Holding and hitting is illegal under the rules so Cortez was bound to come down harder on it in Hatton's next fight. Hatton also made a fool of Cortez be feigning a low blow that wasn't low, Cortez took a point off Castillo for this. Cortez was bound to keep his eye on Hatton after reviewing his own performance

When Billy Graham, Hatton's trainer, talked to Cortez pre-fight he tried to argue 'Ricky isn't a dirty fighter he justs wants to....'. It was almost like a plea to allow dirty fighting. Hatton also got away with countless rule infractions in Manchester
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Old 07-04-2012, 09:31 AM   #45
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries (27 minutes footage)

Happy 4th to those in the USA.


I am glad some of you can see 20+ minutes of the film. Film rules over rumors and selective media clips. I own several rounds of the fight, and for years I have told anyone who’s willing to objectively listen that the fight far from a one-sided affair. But when the media only plays the KO clip, people tend to formulate their opinions. Another falsehood is Johnson completely manhandled Jeffries in the clinches. This is not so. When the two locked up and Jeffries was fresh ( in the early rounds ), it was Johnson who was going backwards. Johnson played it very safe until Jeffries gassed out, and then went for the finish from rounds 13-15.



Fitzsimmons is correct. Jeffries was completely shot for the fight. He had not fought in over 5 years. His muscle memory reflex was gone. He lost 80 pounds for the match. He was 35, and had accelerated aging due to booze and a fat cat lifestyle. His 25+ round stamina was a thing of the past, and even Corbett said he lost his pop when he sparred with Jeffries in 1910. Jeffries had too much pressure on him to win, and his old trainer ( Delaney ) in Johnson’s corner barking out orders on how best to beat his former fighter.



Johnson was at his peak for this fight. I felt Jeffries was slightly the better in the first 4 rounds, and had his share of moments in the mid rounds, including the 10th where a Chicago paper reported he hurt Johnson with body shots, but lacked the stamina to take advantage of the moment. It was all Johnson from round 13-15.



When the best fighter in his prime faces a washed up x-champion, the result should be quick. Think Jeffries vs. Jackson, Dempsey vs. Willard, Marciano vs. Louis, Ali vs. Holmes…the misfortune here is 99% of the public only see a few clips of the fight, and that’s it for Jeffries. Still old Jeffries lasted 15 rounds in the desert heat. Not a terrible performance when you factor in the circumstances.
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