How would Liston have done against Marciano's title opposition ?

[Bummy Davis]

Charles beats him Walcott beats him and Moore may have a good shot....Sonny never beat that quality...Charles may KO him I think Walcott drops him and takes the UD....Moore may mongoose Sonny

[Danmann]

Walcott, Moore, Charles, all 3 beat Liston.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by Danmann

Walcott, Moore, Charles, all 3 beat Liston.

This is not outrageous.

where as Marciano losing to roy harris, folley and patterson is outrageous.

[he grant]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

Charles beats him Walcott beats him and Moore may have a good shot....Sonny never beat that quality...Charles may KO him I think Walcott drops him and takes the UD....Moore may mongoose Sonny

The funny thing is Bummy is totally serious ...

[he grant]

Originally Posted by choklab

This is massaging the truth.

Charles was a light heavyweight for about 12 months after the war. Charles never fought during the war. Before the war charles was was under 169lb and just out of high school. Charles was fighting heavyweights from 1946. his peak was 1946-1953. "Lightheavyweight" did not exist as a real division. It was a title that smaller heavyweights could use as a springboard into the HW ratings.

charles either severly under estimated valdes or had a complete off night since he rebounded with much better wins. gillium outpointed valdes and walace knocked out gillium. by knocking out big wallace charles did the next best thing to avenging this fluke loss to valdes who he couldnt get to rematch. Ezz also beat gillium as well who was just as big as valdes. losing to valdes isnt even a blot on charles's record when you weigh it all up.

The layne loss was an awfull hometown rip off that charles avenged.

The walcott loss was also avenged according to the ringside press.

Harold Johnson was as good as anyone charles ever met. Their fight was razor close. most fans who view the film think charles won.

As an ex champ taking on hometown boys charles was not getting the breaks if a fight went to the cards. He was still as good as ever and no decline had set in.

Marciano v Charles was a 50-50 fight. Both men served during the war. since the war Charles was 55-7 against Rockys 45-0 and had fought in a much better class than marciano. 6 of those 7 losses could have gone Charles's way.

Don't forget Walcott's lucky punch ...

[choklab]

Originally Posted by he grant

Don't forget Walcott's lucky punch ...

It was not a lucky punch but if you fight the same guy that many times anything can hapen in a fair fight. Ezzard won the serries. No shame in that.

Liston fought marshal 3 times and lost once.

[KuRuPT]

We can't make Liston into more than he was IN REALITY... which by the way... wasn't close to Marciano. He fails where Marciano didn't

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by he grant

The funny thing is Bummy is totally serious ...

He's also totally right.

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by he grant

Don't forget Walcott's lucky punch ...

It was a "sneak punch", but not a "lucky punch".

[ETM]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I think Charles is bad news for Liston, especially as he came along at a time during his title run when, presuming things went the same way for him as they did in his own era, Liston was back on the booze. If Charles was holding the title though...

Charles was a great fighter. Especially at lightheavy. He was a very good heavyweight.

The reality is that the Charles of 1954 that Marciano faced wasnt not the same fighter he once was. He isnt gonna be able to take Liston`s punching power. Sonny`s jab would rattle him enough.

[ETM]

Its interesting that many boxing fans have it in their mind that Ali from the 1960s was untouchable. Could probably beat any heavyweight that came along before or since. Not saying everyone feels that but many do.

Based on what? He beat many of the same fighters that Sonny Liston had beaten earlier. Except Liston beat better versions of them.

Ali looked so great against Cleveland Williams...Williams had a bullet in him at the time Ali was inventing new dances in the ring. Sonny steamrolled the dangerous version of Williams. Twice!

Ali looked phenonmenal taking out an old asss Zora Folley. Liston wrecked a prime verison of Zora Folley.

Ali toyed with Floyd Patterson whose back went out in the middle of a the fight. Liston didnt give his back a chance to go out. Sonny put him out.

Not saying Sonny Liston has the best resume btu his comp wasnt as bad as Ive been reading on here. The guys Marciano beat Moore, Charles and Walcott had bigger names. They accomplished more in the lighter divisions.

Liston`s comp was at least as good as Rocky`s taking nostalgia out of it probably better.

[Muchmoore]

Originally Posted by ETM

Its interesting that many boxing fans have it in their mind that Ali from the 1960s was untouchable. Could probably beat any heavyweight that came along before or since. Not saying everyone feels that but many do.

Based on what? He beat many of the same fighters that Sonny Liston had beaten earlier. Except Liston beat better versions of them.

Well he beat Liston himself for one plus the Terrel win is prety under rated in the grand scheme of things. Ernie was good.

[KuRuPT]

Originally Posted by ETM

Charles was a great fighter. Especially at lightheavy. He was a very good heavyweight.

The reality is that the Charles of 1954 that Marciano faced wasnt not the same fighter he once was. He isnt gonna be able to take Liston`s punching power. Sonny`s jab would rattle him enough.

Fantasy's about what Liston COULD'VE been doesn't change who he ACTUALLY WAS... He doesn't do what marciano did because he doesn't have IT...

[yancey]

Originally Posted by he grant

Curious on your thoughts ?

The prime Sonny of the late '50s and very early '60s goes 49-0 against Marciano's opposition.

Sonny would have taken Marciano out, too.

Sorry, Marciano fans, but it would have happened.

[he grant]

Originally Posted by red cobra

He's also totally right.

Do you know how ridiculous you sound ? The Charles that fought Marciano lost twice to ancient Walcott, lost and fought on even terms with the limited Rex Layne and lost to Nino Valdez and Harold Johnson ... but he beats a prime Sonny Liston ... have another ...