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Old 06-30-2012, 07:46 PM   #16
Seamus
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Actually, before the 1910 Johnson-Jeffries fight, Langford picked Jeff to win. Sam said he thought he could beat Johnson, but would have no chance with Jeff, which therefore explained his selection of Jeff to beat Johnson.
Sam routinely spoke from a humble, "proper (for a Black man at the time) perspective. Even ridiculously so. I don't give much credence to these statments...
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Old 06-30-2012, 08:27 PM   #17
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Sam routinely spoke from a humble, "proper (for a Black man at the time) perspective. Even ridiculously so. I don't give much credence to these statments...
Well, he sure didn't mind blasting white guys out of there quickly.
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:22 AM   #18
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Well, he sure didn't mind blasting white guys out of there quickly.
Neither was he averse to carrying quite few of them, when circumstances indicated it was prudent to do so.
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:26 AM   #19
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Actually, before the 1910 Johnson-Jeffries fight, Langford picked Jeff to win. Sam said he thought he could beat Johnson, but would have no chance with Jeff, which therefore explained his selection of Jeff to beat Johnson.
I've read that both Langford and Jeannette picked Jeffries to win by ko.Johnson is reported to have been gleeful at the animosity they encountered among blacks that followed their vanilla choice,and lost their $$$.
One wonders what the black community would make of Jeannette and Langford's picks today?
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:31 AM   #20
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Sam routinely spoke from a humble, "proper (for a Black man at the time) perspective. Even ridiculously so. I don't give much credence to these statments...
Jeannette and McVey both married white women, I dont think Langford ever married but he consorted with as many ladies of the evening as Johnson did, he just told" Old Massah" what he wanted to hear,and so escaped opprobrium*.
*[there's a word you can utilise].Unnecessary,longwinded, and archaic.
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:41 AM   #21
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

Yup. Both Langford and Jeannette picked Jeff. But that does not mean it wasn't their genuine opinion. A lot of whites and blacks had that opinion. Hence, Jeff was the heavy favorite in the betting odds. There were plenty of those who expressed the opinion that Jeff would lose, though, especially fighters, and very well respected ones, too. It will all be in the book.
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Old 07-01-2012, 11:17 AM   #22
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Yup. Both Langford and Jeannette picked Jeff. But that does not mean it wasn't their genuine opinion. A lot of whites and blacks had that opinion. Hence, Jeff was the heavy favorite in the betting odds. There were plenty of those who expressed the opinion that Jeff would lose, though, especially fighters, and very well respected ones, too. It will all be in the book.
I personally think from all I read that both Langford and Jeannette had sour g****s with regards to Johnson and that influenced their public opinions ... I also think they took a less confrontational positional racially for all the obvious reasons .. how either professional fighter could select a man so out of ring shape to defeat a fighter both knew was terrific and in his prime lacks honesty to me ...
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Old 07-01-2012, 11:22 AM   #23
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

"I dont think Langford ever married."

McVey, have you even looked at the book I wrote about him? There's a forward from his granddaughter and pictures of him with his wife and daughter.
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Old 07-01-2012, 01:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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I personally think from all I read that both Langford and Jeannette had sour g****s with regards to Johnson and that influenced their public opinions ... I also think they took a less confrontational positional racially for all the obvious reasons .. how either professional fighter could select a man so out of ring shape to defeat a fighter both knew was terrific and in his prime lacks honesty to me ...
Because Jeff was viewed as invincible, had never lost, was never decked, had been training for the fight for nearly 2 years, was very convincing in saying he would win, and a lot of folks said he looked very good in training, including all of his sparring partners, who picked him to win easily by KO, plus he was a big strong huge imposing dude who had better results against common opponents, and Johnson was consistently underrated. A lot of folks thought Johnson was about to get his comeuppance and get badly exposed. Again, we can look back now and see it otherwise, now that we know the result, and yes there were plenty who questioned Jeff's ability to come back after being out so long, but there were also a LOT of folks who were convinced Johnson was about to get KO'd by a guy who was so great that he did not need to be at his best to do it. Hence, the fight was huge. It would not have been that big of a deal if folks thought Jeff was some shot shell going in, or else they would not have been so interested. This fight was HUGE. Newspapers had massive daily coverage and ****ysis of this fight and their training for a couple of months before it took place. Again, people bet their hard earned cash on Jeff, and HE was the odds favorite all the way up to the opening bell. If folks thought he was shot and could not come back, they would have bet on Johnson and the odds would have shifted. Folks were that convinced that Jeff would win.
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Old 07-01-2012, 02:15 PM   #25
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Because Jeff was viewed as invincible, had never lost, was never decked, had been training for the fight for nearly 2 years, was very convincing in saying he would win, and a lot of folks said he looked very good in training, including all of his sparring partners, who picked him to win easily by KO, plus he was a big strong huge imposing dude who had better results against common opponents, and Johnson was consistently underrated. A lot of folks thought Johnson was about to get his comeuppance and get badly exposed. Again, we can look back now and see it otherwise, now that we know the result, and yes there were plenty who questioned Jeff's ability to come back after being out so long, but there were also a LOT of folks who were convinced Johnson was about to get KO'd by a guy who was so great that he did not need to be at his best to do it. Hence, the fight was huge. It would not have been that big of a deal if folks thought Jeff was some shot shell going in, or else they would not have been so interested. This fight was HUGE. Newspapers had massive daily coverage and ****ysis of this fight and their training for a couple of months before it took place. Again, people bet their hard earned cash on Jeff, and HE was the odds favorite all the way up to the opening bell. If folks thought he was shot and could not come back, they would have bet on Johnson and the odds would have shifted. Folks were that convinced that Jeff would win.

Here's another entity from the same time that the wise old-timers thought to be invincible. A smart lot they were.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 07-01-2012, 02:58 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Shouldn't any fantasy fight be between both fighters in their respective primes ?
If not where does it end ?
Literally what the **** are you talking about? A lot of fantasy matches are precisely like this,. A match that could gave been made at the time but didn't.

Jeffries couldnt do it in my eyes. The reason why Johnson beat Jeffries was because he could bully him and had great physical strength, Langford on the other hand would be the one getting bullied early on, however despite his huge physical disadvantages he made up with his reflexes and superior boxing ability. I think Sam has a good chance and I'd favour him slightly. Langford by close UD in the eyes of the unbiased, however at the time it may have been given as a draw or a close win for Jeffries

Last edited by Webbiano; 07-01-2012 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:12 PM   #27
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Shouldn't any fantasy fight be between both fighters in their respective primes ?
If not where does it end ?
Well, it ends with the limit of our imaginations, our ability to propose fantasy fights under different circumstances.

Generally I don't see any illogic in proposing 'Fighter X in this stage of his career' vs. 'Fighter Y in this stage of his career'; so I don't see any illogic in the special case of both fighters, in different career stages, but at the same time (i.e., the state they were in at a particular date).

Of course, in so far as our opinion regarding these fantasy HtH's relates to the general greatness of a fighter, it's only fair to recognize that a 1910 Jeffries was past best -- just as, in the case of Jeffries actual fight against Johnson, it's fair to recognize that Jeffries was past best.
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Old 07-01-2012, 07:11 PM   #28
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Originally Posted by guilalah View Post
Well, it ends with the limit of our imaginations, our ability to propose fantasy fights under different circumstances.

Generally I don't see any illogic in proposing 'Fighter X in this stage of his career' vs. 'Fighter Y in this stage of his career'; so I don't see any illogic in the special case of both fighters, in different career stages, but at the same time (i.e., the state they were in at a particular date).

Of course, in so far as our opinion regarding these fantasy HtH's relates to the general greatness of a fighter, it's only fair to recognize that a 1910 Jeffries was past best -- just as, in the case of Jeffries actual fight against Johnson, it's fair to recognize that Jeffries was past best.
Where does a question of this nature end. ? Of course any question could be posed similar to "who would win between a Jeffries of 1910,out of the ring for 5 years and a prime Sam Langford...But what about for example the 1980 Ali of the Larry Holmes bout against a prime Jerry ****ey ? This type of question opens up a Pandora's box of pitting past prime fighters against
prime fighters, when we have more than our share of debates when both fighters are in their prime, I would think...
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Old 07-01-2012, 07:22 PM   #29
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
Literally what the **** are you talking about? A lot of fantasy matches are precisely like this,. A match that could gave been made at the time but didn't.

Jeffries would win in my eyes. The reason why Johnson beat Jeffries was because he could bully him and had great physical strength, Langford on the other hand would be the one getting bullied early on. Despite this I think Sam has a good chance, although not a huge fan. Langford by close UD in the eyes of the unbiased, however at the time it may have been given as a draw or a close win for Jeffries
Cool down W. Tell me as you state about "a lot of fantasy matches pit 1 man in his prime against another man out of the ring for FIVE tears "?
Post me the numerous matches you cite above of one man in his prime against another man way out of his prime ?...Almost all great fantasy matches assume both fighters were at their bests...
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Old 07-01-2012, 07:29 PM   #30
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

Hard to say, Jeffries was past his best, but the question is 'how much'? Most will say completely shot, I'm not so sure. If he's still say 90% of what he was, then can Langford beat him with the size disadvantage? Langford wouldn't be as cautious as Johnson, he'd fight in the pocket with all guns blazing from the start. Langford has speed on him for sure, how will Jeffries take the smaller man's power punches? Will Jeffries be able to make his size advantage pay?

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Shouldn't any fantasy fight be between both fighters in their respective primes ?
If not where does it end ?
It should be pretty obvious, to ask if Langford could replicate or do better in Jack Johnson's boots
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