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Old 07-02-2012, 02:24 AM   #46
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

Its research like this that makes me glad I joined esb.
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Old 07-02-2012, 03:34 AM   #47
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Originally Posted by Cmoyle View Post
"I dont think Langford ever married."

McVey, have you even looked at the book I wrote about him? There's a forward from his granddaughter and pictures of him with his wife and daughter.
Havent read the book so was unaware he was married .Once again thanks for the information , I am happy to be corrected.
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Old 07-02-2012, 03:45 AM   #48
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Here's another entity from the same time that the wise old-timers thought to be invincible. A smart lot they were.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
William Brady ,Jeffries former manager was asked by Jeffries what he thought would happen if he accepted the fight , Brady told him, "If you fight Johnson ,you will regret it for the rest of your life, for you will surely lose".
Jeffries never spoke to Brady again.

Ketchel, Sullivan,Papke all thought Jeffries was on a loser,so some old timers were prescient.


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Old 07-02-2012, 07:30 AM   #49
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

If Ketchel went through with his wild plan to sucker punch Jeffries prior to the Johnson bout therefore "saving" Jim Jeffries from losing to Johnson, this onerous act would have most likely saved Ketchels life , for he was shot and killed just THREE months later
recuperating from a wild lifestyle in Conway, Missouri on Oct. 12, 1910...
The hands of fate...
C Moyle , what a book you could write on the cruel, brave, colorful Stanley Ketchel...
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Old 07-02-2012, 07:54 AM   #50
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Jeannette and McVey both married white women, I dont think Langford ever married but he consorted with as many ladies of the evening as Johnson did, he just told" Old Massah" what he wanted to hear,and so escaped opprobrium*.
*[there's a word you can utilise].Unnecessary,longwinded, and archaic.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:50 AM   #51
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

Listening to the range of opinions in the run up to Johnson Jeffries seems very much like reading those in the run up to Foreman Ali, or any other major fight.

Some of the so called experts get it spot on, but the majority of them get swept along by the tide of general opinion. Humans are social animals who are very heavily influenced by group mentality, and most people are capable of going against their judgment if there is a strong tide of opinion in that direction.
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Old 07-02-2012, 09:26 AM   #52
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

"C Moyle , what a book you could write on the cruel, brave, colorful Stanley Ketchel..."

I gave that some serious thought at one time Burt and even went so far as to do a fair amount of research but then a book or two came out about him and I put the idea on the back burner. Still, I believe there is room for a very thorough biography on him. He'd definately be an interesting subject to research and write about. Maybe one day.
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:01 AM   #53
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Don't worry, I have recommitted myself to keeping all posts at an 8 year old's reading level. McVey is so correct. I wish we could just burn 2/3 of the OED and be rid of those redundant and useless words that clutter up clear thought and purposeful action.

Carry On!
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Old 07-02-2012, 10:04 AM   #54
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

These are cute and interesting yarns written decades later, but not true, just fanciful stories. If Ketchel had tried to KO Jeff right before the biggest fight ever, a fight with the most money on the line ever, major financial investments being made, the entire public wanting to see the fight, Rickard having spent money on two arenas, folks having paid train fares from all over, hotel, wagers having been made, film rights having been paid for, fighters having spent many months training and preparing, and all the expenses that go along with that, etc., Ketchel wold have been the one to be killed on that day. Yeah right, he was going to just walk over and KO him out of the blue. If anyone believes that I have a bridge to sell them too.

History has a way of getting altered over time. I don't believe versions written years later. The Langford-Johnson fight took place on April 26, 1906. The most reliable sources, to me, are the April 27, 1906 local reports. None of them mention Johnson ever going down. I have reviewed the Boston Globe, Boston Post, Boston Herald, and Boston Journal. Not one of them mention Johnson down at all. And Langford was the local guy, too, so you would think that if their local man did something well that they would be eager to write about it, maybe even spin the fight as more exciting and competitive than it was. Makes for great copy. Yet, not one of them say Johnson was ever down. And all of them basically describe the same fight, with only some minor variations.

There were almost always rumors of fix before every big fight. But there really is nothing to support that the fight was ever fixed. Everyone agreed that Jeff had way too much integrity to be a part of such a thing, and Johnson wanted ever so badly to win that fight, and both trained long and hard for that fight. If it was fixed there would not have been any reason to have it fixed in Frisco but then to change it once it got to Nevada. Just silly ex-post facto speculation. If Johnson agreed to fix it but then did not, he probably would have been killed, because a LOT of money was bet on Jeff. These rumors were made by some, but later on, well before the fight, reporters said such talk had died down, and everyone agreed the fight was to be fought on its merits.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:04 AM   #55
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

I've seen all those local source accounts of the fight as well and have to agree that if a knockdown of Johnson had occured in the fight that it would have been mentioned by one of these local papers, even if it was thought to be the result of a slip.

And, I understand that it could have been made up on the part of Woodman and Langford as a part of their efforts to secure a second fight with Johnson later on.

Still, it's always left the thought in my mind that there could be a sliver of truth to it when I've come across things like the Australian trainer, Duke Mullins, recounting that Johnson told him he did go down but only because he was hit when he was off balance or a comment supposedly by Johnson in that French book 'Mes Combats' saying he went down. I see there was also an article written in 1947 for The Veteran Boxer by Boston local Doc Almy in which he said that Johnson was dropped to the boards in the fifth round by Langford. But, as you say why wouldn't at least one of those local papers have mentioned that if it was the case? And was Doc Almy in attendance that day? Or, just repeating a bogus story he'd been told?

Either way, it doesn't matter much as Johnson dominated the fight by all accounts, just an interesting story or myth to research and attempt to put to bed one way or another.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:10 AM   #56
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Don't worry, I have recommitted myself to keeping all posts at an 8 year old's reading level. McVey is so correct. I wish we could just burn 2/3 of the OED and be rid of those redundant and useless words that clutter up clear thought and purposeful action.

Carry On!

We know why you like to use the long words.

It has nothing to do with any reading level, and everything to do with a yearning need to impress people, with your self perceived erudition.
I sometimes use them myself ,when I am replying to Mongdoza, but not to impress , just to confound him.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:18 AM   #57
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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Originally Posted by apollack View Post
These are cute and interesting yarns written decades later, but not true, just fanciful stories. If Ketchel had tried to KO Jeff right before the biggest fight ever, a fight with the most money on the line ever, major financial investments being made, the entire public wanting to see the fight, Rickard having spent money on two arenas, folks having paid train fares from all over, hotel, wagers having been made, film rights having been paid for, fighters having spent many months training and preparing, and all the expenses that go along with that, etc., Ketchel wold have been the one to be killed on that day. Yeah right, he was going to just walk over and KO him out of the blue. If anyone believes that I have a bridge to sell them too.

History has a way of getting altered over time. I don't believe versions written years later. The Langford-Johnson fight took place on April 26, 1906. The most reliable sources, to me, are the April 27, 1906 local reports. None of them mention Johnson ever going down. I have reviewed the Boston Globe, Boston Post, Boston Herald, and Boston Journal. Not one of them mention Johnson down at all. And Langford was the local guy, too, so you would think that if their local man did something well that they would be eager to write about it, maybe even spin the fight as more exciting and competitive than it was. Makes for great copy. Yet, not one of them say Johnson was ever down. And all of them basically describe the same fight, with only some minor variations.

There were almost always rumors of fix before every big fight. But there really is nothing to support that the fight was ever fixed. Everyone agreed that Jeff had way too much integrity to be a part of such a thing, and Johnson wanted ever so badly to win that fight, and both trained long and hard for that fight. If it was fixed there would not have been any reason to have it fixed in Frisco but then to change it once it got to Nevada. Just silly ex-post facto speculation. If Johnson agreed to fix it but then did not, he probably would have been killed, because a LOT of money was bet on Jeff. These rumors were made by some, but later on, well before the fight, reporters said such talk had died down, and everyone agreed the fight was to be fought on its merits.
The story of Ketchel's plan to ko Jeffries at the introductions is attributed to Wilson Mizner , his then manager,and is repeated in the book."The Great White Hopes " by Graeme Kent .

As Mizner tells it, he explained to Ketchel that as both of them had bet their last cent on Johnson to win ,Stanley koing Jeffries and rendering him unfit for combat was not a particularly sensible idea. Then too ,both of them had first class seats to the fight and Ketchel was timekeeper for Johnson.

Ketchel does not come across as a particularly bright individual in the recounting of the tale. I have no idea if the story is true , but as John Ford once said," Print The Legend".

Last edited by mcvey; 07-02-2012 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:50 AM   #58
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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The story of Ketchel's plan to ko Jeffries at the introductions is attributed to Wilson Mizner , his then manager,and is repeated in the book."The Great White Hopes " by Graeme Kent .

As Mizner tells it, he explained to Ketchel that as both of them had bet their last cent on Johnson to win ,Stanley koing Jeffries and rendering unfit for combat was not a particulalry sensible idea. Then too ,both of them had first class seats to the fight and Ketchel was timekeeper for Johnson.

Ketchel does not come across as a particularly bright individual in the recounting of the tale. I have no idea if the story is true , but as John Ford once said," Print The Legend".
That's where I read it.

Wasn't Ketchel on the hard stuff (opium?) by that time? He was probably just talking out his ass, making false boasts and the like, going off the rails...

Likewise, Gunboat Smith in all his bluster attributes his rendition of the San Fran fix story to "people in the know". He is quite insistent but also vague.
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:45 PM   #59
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

The biggest bullshitters I have ever met are folks in the boxing industry. A lot of these guys will say or claim almost anything.
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Old 07-02-2012, 01:48 PM   #60
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Default Re: Sam Langford vs James Jeffries 1910

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The biggest bullshitters I have ever met are folks in the boxing industry. A lot of these guys will say or claim almost anything.
Wow, and this coming from a lawyer.
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