Tito Ortiz, where do you rank him in LHW history

[achillesthegreat]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

Aren't you effectively just saying "imagine he was a better fighter than he actually was" though?

Not really because I highlighted what he lacked in making the "just imagine" reality.

I think he did have serious issues with divorcing, issues with jenna, neck injuries, falling out with dana etc but often felt like they were excuses to hide the fact he wasn't really good enough in terms of fitness or skills.

I think once his double take down/gnp was figured out by a new era of more complete fighters he struggled big time. He evolved some in his submission defence, submission attacks etc but it never made up for the fact he wasn't very fast, wasn't very powerful and perhaps strength/short arms was his true ability but the he lacked the fitness to ever look good for long periods of time.

[achillesthegreat]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

For me, the top of the pack at lhw is (not in any strict order):

Shogun, Jones, Wanderlei, Rampage, Chuck, Hendo


After that, there is the second grouping:

Couture, Machida, Ortiz, Belfort, Evans, etc...



The quality of opponent in Tito's lhw reign is not strong enough to justify him being in the top grouping. The most important thing is the calibre of fighter that guys have beaten, and Tito is not quite on the same level as the top guys IMO.

I too hold his weak defences against him but give him credit for non title wins over top fighters who are still plying their trade today.

[davidwatts]

i always recall watching a ufc show where dana said that all the very best lhws were sent to liddell to fight, and the rest to tito.
is that true?
although i prefer chuck to tito, i wish tito had of beaten chuck on one occasion, coz sometimes i've felt sorry for tito.
i've always had the impression that a lot of people, including ufc fighters, have a bit of a laugh at him.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by achillesthegreat

He got injured, got old and despite evolving he didn't quite have the ability or tools to stay legendary into the next era. Just imagine if his triangle stayed locked on Machida, just imagine if his guillotine locked on Evans. Just imagine if he didn't lose the point against Evans the first time. Even against Griffin, he would have big moments but by and large he needed a bit of luck to make up for his lack of ability and tools. I always thought average stamina hurt him because what ability he did have needed to be combined with tenacity.

Nevertheless, he still has the most defences in LHW history and his record still has Ws next to names like Silva, Tanner, Matyushenko, Shamrock, Cote, Belfort and Griffin.

Evolved? When did Tito ever evolve? He was a basic single leg double leg wrestler who looked for the takedown and then smashed you up with brutal elbows and GnP. That was pretty much all it ever was from him. In that respect id place him on the same level as every guy that ever come out of Hammerhouse.
That said its hard to have him in the top 10 even despite his name, fame and making the UFC a name brand. That guy along with Chuck was once the face of the brand. He also has some great wins. His most significant win was probably over Ken. In probably one of the most brutal displays of GnP he literally destroyed whatever hype Ken had left.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by davidwatts

i always recall watching a ufc show where dana said that all the very best lhws were sent to liddell to fight, and the rest to tito.
is that true?
although i prefer chuck to tito, i wish tito had of beaten chuck on one occasion, coz sometimes i've felt sorry for tito.
i've always had the impression that a lot of people, including ufc fighters, have a bit of a laugh at him.

Tito wanted no part of Chuck. He knew how that was going to end and made numerous excuses for not making the bout. The result was a foregone conclusion.

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by scurlaruntings

Tito wanted no part of Chuck. He knew how that was going to end and made numerous excuses for not making the bout. The result was a foregone conclusion.

Tito had tougher fights when he didnt have the strap. Beat a couple of good guys like Wandy and a very old Shammy.

In the mean time Chuck fought Randleman, Randy, Suloev, Vitor, Monson and Babalu, that's not even including Reem, Mezger, and Rampage in PRIDE

Tito has his own self to blame for not fighting any of these guys when he had the title for not being a top 10 ATG

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Stoo

Tito had tougher fights when he didnt have the strap. Beat a couple of good guys like Wandy and a very old Shammy.

In the mean time Chuck fought Randleman, Randy, Suloev, Vitor, Monson and Babalu, that's not even including Reem, Mezger, and Rampage in PRIDE

Tito has his own self to blame for not fighting any of these guys when he had the title for not being a top 10 ATG

I remember those days very clearly. Tito FLATLY refused to fight Chuck. He knew he was going to get KO'ed as Chuck was going on a tear and was willing to fight everyone. He was in the PRIDE GP as one of the favourites and was KO'ing every notable name in sight. Tito meanwhile kept citing injury's to delay the inevitable.

[Stoo]

Yeah it was a bit before my time but I caught up with it on the replays on bravo back in the day

Didnt he also stall with contract negotiations to before Randy did him a favour...apparently

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Stoo

Yeah it was a bit before my time but I caught up with it on the replays on bravo back in the day

Didnt he also stall with contract negotiations to before Randy did him a favour...apparently

Tito had ZERO interest. Dana wanted to make the fight. Fans were begging for the fight. Liddell even came into the Octagon after one of Tito's fights and pointedly told him to take the fight. Tito came back with some bullshit about he needed to rehab some injurys or some bollocks. There was a lot of bad blood between those two and the feud was real. Chuck was jealous of Tito's prestige, fame and the belt he coveted as well as Tito being the face of the UFC commanding top dollar. And Tito really played the heel well and was equally vilified and loved by others. He was a brash, mouthy and was hated in equal measure.
I don't recall those contract negotiations but i do recall Tito almost getting involved in a brawl after he fought Belfort i think in the cage with Liddell and Shamrock. Long and short was he mouthed off and both got in the cage to give it back. Was a great Promo for the UFC.

[Stoo]

Yeah it was after the Belfort fight, he called both of them out. I dont think he expected either to walk into the cage though, let alone both.

A very angry Chuck and Ken squaring up to the same guy is a sight to behold

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Stoo

Yeah it was after the Belfort fight, he called both of them out. I dont think he expected either to walk into the cage though, let alone both.

A very angry Chuck and Ken squaring up to the same guy is a sight to behold

If i remember though that was after he had fought both? He tooled Ken in their first match. And got KTFO when he fought Chuck. Chuck was more than happy to do it again. And by the time he fought Ken again no one was really interested as Ken was so old and shop worn he was spitting dust.

[Stoo]

**** knows, Im sure someone will Google it, but the Belfort fight was after he lost the title so he had fought both already iirc

Not surprised he picked Ken after he'd already lost to Rich though

[scurlaruntings]

I'm actually watching UFC 10 in my collection at the mo. Feeling a bit sentimental now
Was great watching the old UFC's back in the day.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Stoo

Yeah it was a bit before my time but I caught up with it on the replays on bravo back in the day

Didnt he also stall with contract negotiations to before Randy did him a favour...apparently

Just had a snoop through my collection and it was UFC 40 it happened at dude. Ortiz started a contract dispute with the UFC as he didn't want to fight Chuck and he was hoping he would make millions off the bout. To be fair to him he and Chuck were very close. But Dana and Lorenzo knew the kind of money that bout would make, and the promotion around that time was hemorrhaging cash.
Chuck though was pretty much a throw back and was happy to fight despite their 'friendship'. Tito on the other hand was a businessman and wanted the money. He did feel betrayed by it all but the reality was he knew he was going to loose his title, as Chuck and Tito routinely rolled together and every time Chuck owned him in the gym.

[Stoo]

I guess to be fair to Tito he did deserve a bump at the time too. He carried the can during the dark ages and I guess Ken earned more than him in that fight easily if I had to speculate

Probably had PRIDE knocking at the door aswell