Tito Ortiz, where do you rank him in LHW history - Page 3

scurlaruntings · 07-10-2012, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

I guess to be fair to Tito he did deserve a bump at the time too. He carried the can during the dark ages and I guess Ken earned more than him in that fight easily if I had to speculate

Probably had PRIDE knocking at the door aswell

If it wasn't for Tito they'd have been no UFC during the early 2000's. When Zuffa bought it a few years later they were close to closing their doors.
Dana had no problem making Shamrock/Tito as it was a huge money spinner for the brand. Ken having recently finished a stint in the WWF and being a well known commodity from the early UFC tournys.
That still allowed Zuffa to really cash in its chips by making Ortiz Liddell. And Tito was in Japan around that time. I remember seeing him on a PRIDE bill he gave flowers to someone but i can't recall who. (Might have been the PRIDE LHW GP) If iirc he fought Yuki Kondo in Japan as well. So i would imagine PRIDE probably were knocking on his door although back then there would have been no way Dana would have parted with him.

Stoo · 07-10-2012, 06:05 PM

Yeah it was Wandy v Saku, 1 iirc. He kissed Kazushi on the cheek, didnt try it with Wandy

Tito is very important in the history of the UFC. The original love him or hate him guy I think. I was just interested to gauge opinion if he was more important as a fighter or a UFC personality tbh

Anyway his HOF is well deserved as a Champ imo and no Tito v Ken, no Zuffa run UFC.

scurlaruntings · 07-10-2012, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

Yeah it was Wandy v Saku, 1 iirc. He kissed Kazushi on the cheek, didnt try it with Wandy

Tito is very important in the history of the UFC. The original love him or hate him guy I think. I was just interested to gauge opinion if he was more important as a fighter or a UFC personality tbh

Anyway his HOF is well deserved as a Champ imo and no Tito v Ken, no Zuffa run UFC.

He was absolutely vital to the success of the promotion. He was their first cross over star. And he played the heel very well and was paid handsomely for it. As a fighter though he's records a bit thin. Still id probably have him scrape in at 10th or so just for his significance alone.

Stoo · 07-10-2012, 06:11 PM

I guess he inspired wrestlers to give it a go too, along with others of course.

Not a bad career for Tank Abotts sparring partner

chrisbonnie · 07-10-2012, 06:47 PM

ill lay my cards on the table first and admit im a huge Tito fan, he is, or was, the soul reason i ended up hooked to mma.

i even flew over from Ireland for his first fight with Liddell (oh the agony)

ill try and be as unbiased as i can, but it will be difficult

scurlaruntings pretty much covered all the bases for me. Tito really did drag the sport, kicking and screaming into the mainstream, love him or hate, rate him or not, the man held a huge weight on his shoulders and carried it well.

as for his fighting legacy.

the injuries killed him. Are most of you lads english? he's nearly a Michael Owen, or Robbie Fowler type character, super talented, yet once one injury set in, the rest just snow balled.

i remember i used to frequent the message boards on Titos official website many moons ago, and during the training camp for Titos fight with Randy a training partner of Titos was on the site telliing us all that Tito had a back injury that prevented him from lifting his leg above his waste. So that was more than likely the start of these back injuries he's recently had surgery on.

only 1 year before that he had an ACL surgery. I think he returned in something like 7 months with that. most athletes need a year off for that.

its often the case that the difference between true greats, and nearly men, is injuries. Im not saying Tito would still be champ. But injuries definetly played a part in his career.

i still believe if he had of fought Chuck straight after the Shamrock fight he would have won. He was on such a dominating role then, and his cardio was so bloody good, that i belive he'd have beaten Chuck in a similar fashion that Rampage did in the pride MW tournament. But again, thats maybe me thinking with my "punishment hat" on

Tito deserves his place in the hall of fame, he certainly entertained us over the years. nobody can deny that

thewinfella · 07-10-2012, 07:20 PM

At his best Tito was pretty dam good , i was most impressed with his win over Vitor Belfort , Belfort although still learning and perfecting his craft was just dominated by Tito's wrestling and top game , Tito has some good wins but the Belfort display was his best IMHO

When he began to slow down , he got progressively worse at everything , ironically his boxing is probably better now than ever before but his physical limitations have killed the old Tito which was far superior to current Tito

In his prime he was enjoyable to watch , and actually wasn't bad at all

dogcatcher · 07-10-2012, 08:21 PM

My rankings for past and current LHW champions based mostly on H2H and ability as well

1) Jon Jones (16-1-0)
2) Mauricio Rua (20-6-0)
3) Lyoto Machida (17-3-0)
4) Rashad Evans (16-2-1)
5) Quinton Jackson (32-10-0)
6) Chuck Liddell (21-8-0)
7) Randy Couture (19-11-0)

Tito Ortiz (16-1-1)
9) Vitor Belfort (21-9-0)
10) Forrest Griffin (19-7-0)

achillesthegreat · 07-11-2012, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scurlaruntings

Evolved? When did Tito ever evolve? He was a basic single leg double leg wrestler who looked for the takedown and then smashed you up with brutal elbows and GnP. That was pretty much all it ever was from him. In that respect id place him on the same level as every guy that ever come out of Hammerhouse.
That said its hard to have him in the top 10 even despite his name, fame and making the UFC a name brand. That guy along with Chuck was once the face of the brand. He also has some great wins. His most significant win was probably over Ken. In probably one of the most brutal displays of GnP he literally destroyed whatever hype Ken had left.

He did evolve. He worked on his striking, submission attacks and defence. The game simply moved too quickly for him and he never had the ability to catch up.

scurlaruntings · 07-11-2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achillesthegreat

He did evolve. He worked on his striking, submission attacks and defence. The game simply moved too quickly for him and he never had the ability to catch up.

Never saw that in any of his fights. Tito fought the same way his entire career. His striking was very pedestrian.

Kittikasem · 07-11-2012, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogcatcher

My rankings for past and current LHW champions based mostly on H2H and ability as well

1) Jon Jones (16-1-0)
2) Mauricio Rua (20-6-0)
3) Lyoto Machida (17-3-0)
4) Rashad Evans (16-2-1)
5) Quinton Jackson (32-10-0)
6) Chuck Liddell (21-8-0)
7) Randy Couture (19-11-0)

Tito Ortiz (16-1-1)
9) Vitor Belfort (21-9-0)
10) Forrest Griffin (19-7-0)

Rashad Evans over Wanderlei Silva? Insanity.

Rashad Evans over Chuck Liddell? Nonsense.

Rashad Evans over Rampage Jackson? Ridiculous.

Rashad Evans over Dan Henderson? Horseshit.

dogcatcher · 07-12-2012, 06:52 AM

Neither wanderlei or hendo have succesfully won the ufc 205 title so there just not there. Fair, maybe not but thats the reality. Pride had so many fixed fights and bums for opposition that it can't be taken seriously in terms of a direct comparison to ufc. Hendo is a badass and hopefully his opportunity to win the ufc gold comes to fruition.

Also H2H Rashad beat both Rampage and Liddell. Even if Chucks chin hadn't eroded like Roy Jones he would still not be able to compete in todays current environment with his caveman like punches and lack of head movement. His stye was best against limited grapplers who couldn't take him down due to his own wrestling defense.

scurlaruntings · 07-12-2012, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogcatcher

Neither wanderlei or hendo have succesfully won the ufc 205 title so there just not there. Fair, maybe not but thats the reality. Pride had so many fixed fights and bums for opposition that it can't be taken seriously in terms of a direct comparison to ufc. Hendo is a badass and hopefully his opportunity to win the ufc gold comes to fruition.

Also H2H Rashad beat both Rampage and Liddell. Even if Chucks chin hadn't eroded like Roy Jones he would still not be able to compete in todays current environment with his caveman like punches and lack of head movement. His stye was best against limited grapplers who couldn't take him down due to his own wrestling defense.

07-10-2012, 06:05 PM	#32
Stoo Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 12,942 vCash: 1000	Re: Tito Ortiz, where do you rank him in LHW history Yeah it was Wandy v Saku, 1 iirc. He kissed Kazushi on the cheek, didnt try it with Wandy Tito is very important in the history of the UFC. The original love him or hate him guy I think. I was just interested to gauge opinion if he was more important as a fighter or a UFC personality tbh Anyway his HOF is well deserved as a Champ imo and no Tito v Ken, no Zuffa run UFC.
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07-10-2012, 06:11 PM	#34
Stoo Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 12,942 vCash: 1000	Re: Tito Ortiz, where do you rank him in LHW history I guess he inspired wrestlers to give it a go too, along with others of course. Not a bad career for Tank Abotts sparring partner
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07-10-2012, 06:47 PM	#35
chrisbonnie Journeyman ESB Jr Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 234 vCash: 1000	Re: Tito Ortiz, where do you rank him in LHW history ill lay my cards on the table first and admit im a huge Tito fan, he is, or was, the soul reason i ended up hooked to mma. i even flew over from Ireland for his first fight with Liddell (oh the agony) ill try and be as unbiased as i can, but it will be difficult scurlaruntings pretty much covered all the bases for me. Tito really did drag the sport, kicking and screaming into the mainstream, love him or hate, rate him or not, the man held a huge weight on his shoulders and carried it well. as for his fighting legacy. the injuries killed him. Are most of you lads english? he's nearly a Michael Owen, or Robbie Fowler type character, super talented, yet once one injury set in, the rest just snow balled. i remember i used to frequent the message boards on Titos official website many moons ago, and during the training camp for Titos fight with Randy a training partner of Titos was on the site telliing us all that Tito had a back injury that prevented him from lifting his leg above his waste. So that was more than likely the start of these back injuries he's recently had surgery on. only 1 year before that he had an ACL surgery. I think he returned in something like 7 months with that. most athletes need a year off for that. its often the case that the difference between true greats, and nearly men, is injuries. Im not saying Tito would still be champ. But injuries definetly played a part in his career. i still believe if he had of fought Chuck straight after the Shamrock fight he would have won. He was on such a dominating role then, and his cardio was so bloody good, that i belive he'd have beaten Chuck in a similar fashion that Rampage did in the pride MW tournament. But again, thats maybe me thinking with my "punishment hat" on Tito deserves his place in the hall of fame, he certainly entertained us over the years. nobody can deny that
Top

07-10-2012, 07:20 PM	#36
thewinfella The Golden Boy East Side Guru Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: UK Posts: 7,231 vCash: 75	Re: Tito Ortiz, where do you rank him in LHW history At his best Tito was pretty dam good , i was most impressed with his win over Vitor Belfort , Belfort although still learning and perfecting his craft was just dominated by Tito's wrestling and top game , Tito has some good wins but the Belfort display was his best IMHO When he began to slow down , he got progressively worse at everything , ironically his boxing is probably better now than ever before but his physical limitations have killed the old Tito which was far superior to current Tito In his prime he was enjoyable to watch , and actually wasn't bad at all
Top

07-10-2012, 08:21 PM	#37
dogcatcher Journeyman ESB Jr Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 210 vCash: 500	Re: Tito Ortiz, where do you rank him in LHW history My rankings for past and current LHW champions based mostly on H2H and ability as well 1) Jon Jones (16-1-0) 2) Mauricio Rua (20-6-0) 3) Lyoto Machida (17-3-0) 4) Rashad Evans (16-2-1) 5) Quinton Jackson (32-10-0) 6) Chuck Liddell (21-8-0) 7) Randy Couture (19-11-0) Tito Ortiz (16-1-1) 9) Vitor Belfort (21-9-0) 10) Forrest Griffin (19-7-0)
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07-12-2012, 06:52 AM	#41
dogcatcher Journeyman ESB Jr Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 210 vCash: 500	Re: Tito Ortiz, where do you rank him in LHW history Neither wanderlei or hendo have succesfully won the ufc 205 title so there just not there. Fair, maybe not but thats the reality. Pride had so many fixed fights and bums for opposition that it can't be taken seriously in terms of a direct comparison to ufc. Hendo is a badass and hopefully his opportunity to win the ufc gold comes to fruition. Also H2H Rashad beat both Rampage and Liddell. Even if Chucks chin hadn't eroded like Roy Jones he would still not be able to compete in todays current environment with his caveman like punches and lack of head movement. His stye was best against limited grapplers who couldn't take him down due to his own wrestling defense.
Top