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View Poll Results: who do you rate higher
Dempsey 13 22.81%
Johnson 36 63.16%
tough to say 8 14.04%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-18-2012, 01:58 PM   #46
mcvey
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Ok, I’ll play along:




As a group, I would say Choynski, Hart, Klondike, and Griffin were better than most of the fighters Johnson gave title matches to, save perhaps Willard who KO’d Johnson. To answer you question, I think you have to examine wether or not Johnson’s opponents were in their primes too.



1 ) I’m not sure when Klondike’s prime was. His first listed match was 1898, and he Ko’d Johnson in 1899. I would say based on that, Klondike was far more of a novice than Johnson was, though in 1899. Johnson’s first listed fight was 1894. You could say Johnson lacked some top level experience going into this match. Klondike beat Johnson in match for the colored title, when Johnson apparently quit like a dog without injury, and failed to come out next round.



2 ) Choynski produced a ten count. The fight took place in Johnson’s home town, and by 1901, Choysnki’s best days were behind him when the fight took place. For the record, Johnson first recorded match was in 1894. He had 24+ recorded matches before he was sparked in 3 rounds vs. Choynski, so calling Johnson a green novice is a bit of a stretch.



Both Klondike and Choynski had some power. Chins do not improve greatly as a career progresses. Post 1905-1915 did Johnson give a title shot to 175+ pound fighter in his prime or near prime with skills and power? I think not.



3 ) Griffin best days were most certainly behind him in 1901, yet he defeated Johnson, and drew with him.


4) The Hart match in 1905 was a high stakes, elimination match, with the winner being billed for a title shot with Jeffries. Johnson did very little in the 2nd half of the fight, and lost it. Neither guy was pre or post prime here.



Summary: Klondike was green. Choysnki past his best. Griffin way outside of his prime. Hart was in his prime.



And finally, if you think Johnson wasn’t in his prime until post 1905 that is your opinion. Just admit Johnson would not likely to defeat Jeffries when Jeffries was champion from 1899-1905.

I asked you if you thought Johnson was in his prime in those fights ?

We are judging Johnson v Dempsey BOTH IN THEIR PRIMES.

What is so hard to grasp about that?


You have NOT answered the question.


You say Klondike, Choynski, Griffin ,and Hart are better than Johnson's challengers based on what?
All the extensive film you have seen of them?


Johnson did NOT QUIT against Klondike, both Apollack ,and myelf have corrected you on this before.


Why do you persist in repeating something you know to be false?


According to George Siler, the premier referee of the era,"Johnson was half starved when he fought Klondike".He dropped Klondike early, but ran out of energy and was stopped.

A full report of the fight has been posted by me and ,once again ignored by you.

Johnson was a good 20lbs lighter against Hart than he was when he fought Jeffries at 208lbs photos confirm this, it is not even debatable.

Siler was ringside for the Hart fight and, gave the nod to Johnson,calling Creggains verdict a "very strange decision".

Again this has been posted before and ,ignored by Johnson's chief hater, namely you.


Sad but absolutely predictable.


You are in desperate need of new material.

Last edited by mcvey; 07-18-2012 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:14 PM   #47
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

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Originally Posted by KuRuPT View Post
Johnson and IMO it isn't THAT close... They are both all time greats.. I just happen to believe Johnson Greatness is clearly above that of Dempsey's
Totally agree. I wouldnt even think twice about it
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:11 PM   #48
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

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Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
I have Johnson just inside the top ten and Dempsey just outside of it. I'm not too high on either. Both excellent fighters, of course.
This.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:43 AM   #49
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

As a group, I would say Choynski, Hart, Klondike, and Griffin were better than most of the fighters Johnson gave title matches to, save perhaps Willard who KO’d Johnson. To answer you question, I think you have to examine wether or not Johnson’s opponents were in their primes too.



1 ) I’m not sure when Klondike’s prime was. His first listed match was 1898, and he Ko’d Johnson in 1899. I would say based on that, Klondike was far more of a novice than Johnson was, though in 1899. Johnson’s first listed fight was 1894. You could say Johnson lacked some top level experience going into this match. Klondike beat Johnson in match for the colored title, when Johnson apparently quit like a dog without injury, and failed to come out next round.



2 ) Choynski produced a ten count. The fight took place in Johnson’s home town, and by 1901, Choysnki’s best days were behind him when the fight took place. For the record, Johnson first recorded match was in 1894. He had 24+ recorded matches before he was sparked in 3 rounds vs. Choynski, so calling Johnson a green novice is a bit of a stretch.



Both Klondike and Choynski had some power. Chins do not improve greatly as a career progresses. Post 1905-1915 did Johnson give a title shot to 175+ pound fighter in his prime or near prime with skills and power? I think not.



3 ) Griffin best days were most certainly behind him in 1901, yet he defeated Johnson, and drew with him.


4) The Hart match in 1905 was a high stakes, elimination match, with the winner being billed for a title shot with Jeffries. Johnson did very little in the 2nd half of the fight, and lost it. Neither guy was pre or post prime here.



Summary: Klondike was green. Choysnki past his best. Griffin way outside of his prime. Hart was in his prime.



And finally, if you think Johnson wasn’t in his prime until post 1905 that is your opinion. Just admit Johnson would not likely to defeat Jeffries when Jeffries was champion from 1899-1905.


Quote:
mcvey says:

I asked you if you thought Johnson was in his prime in those fights ?
My reply is his opponents outside of Hart were not in their primes! 2 of them were past it, one much greener. Again, Johnson started boxing in 1894! I think he was a little green for Klondike, but Klondike had even less experience. By 1901, Johnson had 24+ recorded fights, and had been in the ring for six years.

Quote:
You say Klondike, Choynski, Griffin ,and Hart are better than Johnson's challengers based on what?
They all beat him. What All time great heavy would lose four matches to these guys? Um.....

Quote:
Johnson did NOT QUIT against Klondike, both Apollack ,and myelf have corrected you on this before.
Did not not come out for the next round? That to me is a quit job.


AND I ASKED YOU THIS....ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!!! ARE YOU AFFRAID TO COMMENT? I'll make it larger for you so can't miss it!

And finally, if you think Johnson wasn’t in his prime until post 1905 that is your opinion. Just admit Johnson would not likely to defeat Jeffries when Jeffries was champion from 1899-1905.

Last edited by Mendoza; 07-19-2012 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 07-19-2012, 06:21 AM   #50
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
As a group, I would say Choynski, Hart, Klondike, and Griffin were better than most of the fighters Johnson gave title matches to, save perhaps Willard who KOíd Johnson. To answer you question, I think you have to examine wether or not Johnsonís opponents were in their primes too.



1 ) Iím not sure when Klondikeís prime was. His first listed match was 1898, and he Koíd Johnson in 1899. I would say based on that, Klondike was far more of a novice than Johnson was, though in 1899. Johnsonís first listed fight was 1894. You could say Johnson lacked some top level experience going into this match. Klondike beat Johnson in match for the colored title, when Johnson apparently quit like a dog without injury, and failed to come out next round.



2 ) Choynski produced a ten count. The fight took place in Johnsonís home town, and by 1901, Choysnkiís best days were behind him when the fight took place. For the record, Johnson first recorded match was in 1894. He had 24+ recorded matches before he was sparked in 3 rounds vs. Choynski, so calling Johnson a green novice is a bit of a stretch.



Both Klondike and Choynski had some power. Chins do not improve greatly as a career progresses. Post 1905-1915 did Johnson give a title shot to 175+ pound fighter in his prime or near prime with skills and power? I think not.



3 ) Griffin best days were most certainly behind him in 1901, yet he defeated Johnson, and drew with him.


4) The Hart match in 1905 was a high stakes, elimination match, with the winner being billed for a title shot with Jeffries. Johnson did very little in the 2nd half of the fight, and lost it. Neither guy was pre or post prime here.



Summary: Klondike was green. Choysnki past his best. Griffin way outside of his prime. Hart was in his prime.



And finally, if you think Johnson wasnít in his prime until post 1905 that is your opinion. Just admit Johnson would not likely to defeat Jeffries when Jeffries was champion from 1899-1905.




My reply is his opponents outside of Hart were not in their primes! 2 of them were past it, one much greener. Again, Johnson started boxing in 1894! I think he was a little green for Klondike, but Klondike had even less experience. By 1901, Johnson had 24+ recorded fights, and had been in the ring for six years.



They all beat him. What All time great heavy would lose four matches to these guys? Um.....



Did not not come out for the next round? That to me is a quit job.


AND I ASKED YOU THIS....ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!!! ARE YOU AFFRAID TO COMMENT? I'll make it larger for you so can't miss it!

And finally, if you think Johnson wasnít in his prime until post 1905 that is your opinion. Just admit Johnson would not likely to defeat Jeffries when Jeffries was champion from 1899-1905.
I'll take this slowly because you have trouble absorbing facts.

JACK JOHNSON WAS STOPPED BY KLONDIKE IN 5RDS ,IN 1899.


JOHNSON WAS 21YEARS OLD.


WE ARE COMPARING JOHNSON TO DEMPSEY WHEN BOTH WERE IN THEIR RESPECTIVE PRIMES ,GOT IT?


WILL YOU ANSWER THE QUESTIONS BELOW?


WAS JOHNSON PRIME IN THE FIGHTS MENTIONED?


WILL YOU NOW STOP REPEATING THE LIE THAT 21 YEAR OLD JOHNSON QUIT IN HIS CORNER AGAINST KLONDIKE IN 1899?

IT IS MY CONTENTION THAT JOHNSON PRIME WAS POST 1905 .
BEFORE THAT DATE HE MAY HAVE LOST TO JEFFRIES BUT WE NEVER FOUND OUT BECAUSE JEFFRIES REFUSED TO FIGHT HIM.

George Siler's account of the fight.
You remember Siler he is the man, YOU SAID DID NOT THINK MUCH OF JOHNSON,IN THIS BOOK HE CLAIMS THE HONOUR OF HAVING DISCOVERED HIM.

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Last edited by mcvey; 07-19-2012 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 07-19-2012, 06:39 AM   #51
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

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Mcvey WILL YOU NOW STOP REPPEATING THE LIE THAT 21 YEAR OLD JOHNSON QUIT IN HIS CORNER AGAINST KLONDIKE IN 1899?
Um there are many sources that said he quit McVey. How about Monte Cox who is a well researched historian? He has a tribute to Johnson, but mentioned Johnson did in fact QUIT in the Klondike Match!

Some analysts have questioned the quality of Jack’s chin. But Johnson’s chin is not nearly as bad as some revisionists make it out to be. Prior to the Willard fight he was knocked out only by Klondike Haynes (Johnson quit after 4 rounds) and then by the wily veteran Joe Choynski both fairly early in his career and before he had reached his pinnacle as a fighter.


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Again, Klondike was the had far less experience going into this match. I do think Johnson was a little green here, but not for the other matches unless you consider 6 years and 24+ recorded matches green.
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Old 07-19-2012, 06:45 AM   #52
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post

IT IS MY CONTENTION THAT JOHNSON PRIME WAS POST 1905 .
BEFORE THAT DATE HE MAY HAVE LOST TO JEFFRIES BUT WE NEVER FOUND OUT BECAUSE JEFFRIES REFUSED TO FIGHT HIM.
May have lost? Just answer the question, would you pick Johnson from 1899-1905 to defeat Jeffries? It can't be that hard, to be honest, can it?!


Now, I must go for the day. I'll be back to see how much you hedge this question later, and don't worry McVey, A KO loss or a quit job by Johnson will be there to debate later. By the way, Siler did not think much of Johnson in his book, and was a pretty baised ref on flim!

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Old 07-19-2012, 07:02 AM   #53
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Um there are many sources that said he quit McVey. How about Monte Cox who is a well researched historian? He has a tribute to Johnson, but mentioned Johnson did in fact QUIT in the Klondike Match!

Some analysts have questioned the quality of Jack’s chin. But Johnson’s chin is not nearly as bad as some revisionists make it out to be. Prior to the Willard fight he was knocked out only by Klondike Haynes (Johnson quit after 4 rounds) and then by the wily veteran Joe Choynski both fairly early in his career and before he had reached his pinnacle as a fighter.


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Again, Klondike was the had far less experience going into this match. I do think Johnson was a little green here, but not for the other matches unless you consider 6 years and 24+ recorded matches green.
JOHNSON WAS 21YEARS OLD & HALFSTARVED !
HOW ABOUT KEVIN SMITH , WHOM YOU SAY IS THE PREMIER EXPERT ON EARLY BLACK BOXING HISTORY? HOW ABOUT ADAM APOLLACK? GEOFFREY C WARD ? HOW ABOUT RANDY ROBERTS ?????
Two have written books very well received books on Johnson ,and the other is in the process of doing so?
N.B. Both Box REc and CBZ State it was a stoppage win for Klondike.
Cut out the crap, admit that once again you are WRONG.WHICH WILL BE A FIRST!!!!!!!

Last edited by mcvey; 07-19-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 07-19-2012, 07:05 AM   #54
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

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Originally Posted by mendoza View Post
may have lost? Just answer the question, would you pick johnson from 1899-1905 to defeat jeffries? It can't be that hard, to be honest, can it?!


now, i must go for the day. I'll be back to see how much you hedge this question later, and don't worry mcvey, a ko loss or a quit job by johnson will be there to debate later. By the way, siler did not think much of johnson in his book, and was a pretty baised ref on flim!

I would pick Jeffries prior to 1904 - TOSS UP 1905, & Johnson after.
Is that clear enough for you? Prime for prime I would pick Johnson 7 days a week ,every day of the year,how's that ,clear enough?



What this has to do with Johnson v Dempsey only you know , but you wanted an answer , you got one ,I require the same.

" Griffins best days were certainly behind him"? Griffin was 30 when he beat Johnson.
N. B. Johnson, owing to Jeffries and Burns giving him the run-around was 30 before he won the title.
P.S. Griffin fought on for another 4 years after beating Johnson, he had 13 fights losing only one.

N. B. NO 10 count was administered in the Choynski Johnson fight , look it up


Klondike has 7 listed fights on CBZ, Johnson 13.There are more recorded fights for Johnson elsewhere, but then he was a World Champion ,so there has been more interest ,and focus on him. Klondike may have had loads more fights that went unrecorded ,we do not know.

"Siler was pretty biased "?[not baised] Which film footage leads you to this conclusion?

If you want to talk biased referees I suggest you include Alec Creggains who refereed the Johnson v Hart fight.

Hard to be honest? Not for the rest of us posters on here but, so far ,impossible for you!!!!

Siler did not think much of Johnson?

NO ? That's why he claims the honour of having discovered him,a statement that Johnson himself confirmed! SEE BELOW !


PAGE 10

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nid=SCE0ypLQHGcC&dat=19290422&printsec=frontpage&hl=en



I wonder you can keep coming on here after making such an ass of yourself, time and time again????


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Last edited by mcvey; 07-19-2012 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:55 AM   #55
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

Johnson beats Jeffries from 1904 onward, I have no doubt about this in my mind.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:25 PM   #56
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

easy. dempsey
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:45 PM   #57
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

Flip a coin. Johnson had the better pre-title resume, Dempsey beat better competition once he was champ even with not fighting Wills.
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:26 PM   #58
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

I'd go for Johnson in a close one, both around the 9 or 10 mark on the list.
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:40 PM   #59
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

Jack Johnson beats James Jeffries in 1906
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Old 07-19-2012, 05:51 PM   #60
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Default Re: Who Do You Rate Higher: Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson ??

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This.

So, you didn't want to go with me on the Jose Sulaiman thing...I see.
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