Razor Ruddock vs Riddick Bowe + question

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by salty trunks

Regardless of Phil Jacksons top 10 rating He was a manufactured contender who had little skills and really had no business in the top ten. Like many fighters placed in the top ten by Don King he quickly faded away. Some guys like John Ruiz actually proved their merit Jackson was never any good second and third chance.

20+ years of hindsight that.

Jackson was well thought of by a significant minority going into the Ruddock fight, as a prospect who may have what it takes to make it as at least a decent contender.

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by salty trunks

Regardless of Phil Jacksons top 10 rating He was a manufactured contender who had little skills and really had no business in the top ten. Like many fighters placed in the top ten by Don King he quickly faded away. Some guys like John Ruiz actually proved their merit Jackson was never any good second and third chance.

-I stated the facts. He was an undefeated fighter whom Ring magazine placed in their top 10. He was thought of as a good prospect, if you need an analogy think of him as a Dimitrenko of the early 90s. Ruddock gave him a good trashing and looked pretty good doing so. Ruined fighters don't look good trashing undefeated ranked fighters. Its probably Ruddock's best wins of the 90s, alongside Dokes.

[Joe.Boxer]

Edit.

[salty trunks]

Originally Posted by TBooze

20+ years of hindsight that.

Jackson was well thought of by a significant minority going into the Ruddock fight, as a prospect who may have what it takes to make it as at least a decent contender.

To answer both of your comments, I was in the gym with Jackson down in Miami. Noone felt he had a chance. He simply wasnt that good, in the gym either. You guys both know undefeated doesnt mean jack. Its when you start stepping up in class do you prove your worth, and Jackson was not very good but aligned tightly with Don King. You only have to look at his pitiful record up to the Ruddock fight and after to see proof of that. Anyone with a pulse and winning record easily beat him.

[Azzer85]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

-There just isn't any evidence of a Ruddock decline going into the Lewis fight. So I don't understand the insecure claims that Tyson ruined him before Lewis. He got banged up against Tyson, took some time off, and came back without missing much of a beat.

But dont you think getting beaten up by tyson for 19 rounds will have an affect on a fighter? Ali was pissing blood after 8 rounds with Foreman

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

So where are the claims of Ruddock being ruined coming from? Because he got knocked silly by a flush Lewis right hand in his next fight while dancing around like a dumbass with his hands down? Yeah, because fighters normally don't go down after eating flush shots from Lewis.

I watched that fight again recently, LL did time him good with that first right hand, why Ruddock was crouching so low ill never know. Plus LLs punches were sharper and straight. Whereas Tyson was loading up on hayemakers. Sharper punches will always hurt more than hayemakers

[round15]

Originally Posted by Azzer85

But dont you think getting beaten up by tyson for 19 rounds will have an affect on a fighter? Ali was pissing blood after 8 rounds with Foreman

I watched that fight again recently, LL did time him good with that first right hand, why Ruddock was crouching so low ill never know. Plus LLs punches were sharper and straight. Whereas Tyson was loading up on hayemakers. Sharper punches will always hurt more than hayemakers

I think the Lewis of that night could beat all the heavyweight champions.
Frazier, Tyson 86 - 88, Dempsey and Johnson give him the most trouble.

In the fight Ruddock's hands were at his ribs too, as if he was looking to knock Lennox out with the smash. Both men looked like they were trying to time each other with a big shot. Lennox was smarter, he kept his hands up higher and got to him first, especially with the jab.

I don't think Razor's head was clear in this fight as well. He was going through significant personal BS with his management, brother, and his wife. Might have also been a bit overconfident considering he had beaten Lennox in the amateurs.

[Hookie]

Originally Posted by luke

I always liked the guy, he is one of the few boxers I think I could go out for a drink with and not hate Him, but why is he so over-rated. He had average boxing skills/chin/stamina with atg power, I think Gerry Cooney has a rival here for the most one armed fighter. Like I said I dont hate him, Im just wondering.

Anyway how do you guys think he would of done against Bowe if He and Bowe went at it for Bowes title shot at Holyfield.

Bowe by late round KO

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by round15

I think the Lewis of that night could beat all the heavyweight champions.
Frazier, Tyson 86 - 88, Dempsey and Johnson give him the most trouble.

In the fight Ruddock's hands were at his ribs too, as if he was looking to knock Lennox out with the smash. Both men looked like they were trying to time each other with a big shot. Lennox was smarter, he kept his hands up higher and got to him first, especially with the jab.

I don't think Razor's head was clear in this fight as well. He was going through significant personal BS with his management, brother, and his wife. Might have also been a bit overconfident considering he had beaten Lennox in the amateurs.

Are you fucking crazy? He loses to at least 20 heavyweights that night, probably more. Literally that version of Lewis could be beaten by someone with a great chin and a fairly big punch. It wasn't till after the McCall loss that Lennox became a H2H great, mixing his great power with his boxing skills and sharp defence.

[luke]

[quote=round15;13403207]I think the Lewis of that night could beat all the heavyweight champions.
Frazier, Tyson 86 - 88, Dempsey and Johnson give him the most trouble.
quote]


the kind of guy who would give lennox alot of trouble is a physicaly strong guy bruno/mercer, any guy who is physicaly strong in the clinch, ali,foreman are two of the top of my mind, swarmers are kind of lennox lewis favorite oponent, he can just stand and hit them push them off him and repeate.

[round15]

Originally Posted by Webbiano

Are you fucking crazy? He loses to at least 20 heavyweights that night, probably more. Literally that version of Lewis could be beaten by someone with a great chin and a fairly big punch. It wasn't till after the McCall loss that Lennox became a H2H great, mixing his great power with his boxing skills and sharp defence.

Lewis was hungry, in shape, accurate and focused that night. This is what it takes to be a champion. Plus he had a little revenge incentive going on in his head too considering Ruddock had beaten him before.

Yeah, I do agree with you to a certain extent. He needed the McCall, Rahman, Grant, Briggs and Holyfield experiences to shape and reshape his foundation of greatness.

Perhaps we could say, the older Lewis' mindset with this conditioning would be extremely hard to beat. Still, there aren't many who are beating this version of Lewis IMO.

And, I ain't crazy either. I know this sport, educate this sport and train this sport. Watch who you call crazy and try not to use the four letter words to get a point across. Kinda amateur if you really think about.

[round15]

[quote=luke;13409439]

Originally Posted by round15

I think the Lewis of that night could beat all the heavyweight champions.
Frazier, Tyson 86 - 88, Dempsey and Johnson give him the most trouble.
quote]


the kind of guy who would give lennox alot of trouble is a physicaly strong guy bruno/mercer, any guy who is physicaly strong in the clinch, ali,foreman are two of the top of my mind, swarmers are kind of lennox lewis favorite oponent, he can just stand and hit them push them off him and repeate.

Lennox doesn't like pressure. A faded Holyfield put better pressure on him in the rematch, got to his body and almost pulled off the decision win. Some say he did and was unfairly robbed in the second fight because Lewis deserved the win the first time around. McCall and Mercer are both smaller than Lewis and had him dizzy by being busier. Briggs punched himself out and didn't place his shots well.

Don't know if Lennox could handle the pressure and pace that a prime Frazier a prime Tyson or Dempsey would bring.

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by salty trunks

To answer both of your comments, I was in the gym with Jackson down in Miami. Noone felt he had a chance. He simply wasnt that good, in the gym either. You guys both know undefeated doesnt mean jack. Its when you start stepping up in class do you prove your worth, and Jackson was not very good but aligned tightly with Don King. You only have to look at his pitiful record up to the Ruddock fight and after to see proof of that. Anyone with a pulse and winning record easily beat him.

Grasping for the point. We all know Jackson wasn't a world beater and we can say the same thing for many top 10 fighters over the years. But the issue is did Ruddock's performance against Jackson suggest he was a shot ruined fighter? He did what a top 4 Heavyweight in the world is suppose to do the type of fighter you are describing. If Ruddock struggled with Jackson, than we can talk and toss around words like "ruined" and "shot".

Most importantly, can you name a better winning Ruddock performance from the 90s?

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by Azzer85

But dont you think getting beaten up by tyson for 19 rounds will have an affect on a fighter? Ali was pissing blood after 8 rounds with Foreman

I watched that fight again recently, LL did time him good with that first right hand, why Ruddock was crouching so low ill never know. Plus LLs punches were sharper and straight. Whereas Tyson was loading up on hayemakers. Sharper punches will always hurt more than hayemakers

-Ali pissed blood after Chuvalo too? Was he ruined? Not sure what that has to do with Ruddock anyway.

-There you go. And Tyson still floored Ruddock and knocked him silly quite a few times.

[salty trunks]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

Grasping for the point. We all know Jackson wasn't a world beater and we can say the same thing for many top 10 fighters over the years. But the issue is did Ruddock's performance against Jackson suggest he was a shot ruined fighter? He did what a top 4 Heavyweight in the world is suppose to do the type of fighter you are describing. If Ruddock struggled with Jackson, than we can talk and toss around words like "ruined" and "shot".

Most importantly, can you name a better winning Ruddock performance from the 90s?

A record is meaningless. If you look into Phil's resume leading up to any meaningful fights, its even more meaningless. Peter McNeeley had a comparable record or probably better leading up to his fight with Mike Tyson, yet we seem to put that in proper perspective. Maybe because Peter was white and Phil was black? To be honest, Phil wasnt much better than Peter.

Are we talking about Ruddock being shot and ruined now? Maybe I missed something, but I do think Ruddock had a lot taken out of him in the Tyson fights. Probably mentally more than physically. Even though Tyson didnt hold the title, he was still the top of boxing and Ruddock failed in two brutal fights. Going into the Lewis fight, I dont think he was as mentally up for them and physically I think the Tyson fights took a lot out of him. I think that type of second fight would take a lot out of any fighter. Ruddock took a lot punishment, but mentally he was very strong and thats what takes the most out of fighters afterwards.

[Azzer85]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

-Ali pissed blood after Chuvalo too? Was he ruined? Not sure what that has to do with Ruddock anyway.

-There you go. And Tyson still floored Ruddock and knocked him silly quite a few times.

Yes but Ruddock isnt Ali.

Simple question, Mike Tyson beats the shit out of you for 19 rounds. Are you going to be the same afterwards?

Ruddock himself said him and Tyson ruined each other in their fights