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Old 07-23-2012, 03:24 PM   #1
Senor Pepe'
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Default 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

In the first fight with Cassius Clay.

I really wanted to get out of boxing. All my mobster friends were either dying or going to prison,
and I really didn't have many friends left.

I was tired of it all. I was getting old. I had told everybody I was born in May 1932, but truthfully,
I was born in March 1927.

When I was to fight Clay in Febrauary 1964, I was really just a month shy of 37. I was tired of it all,
and I didn't want to play the boxing game anymore.

As for my personal life, I was living hard, by boozing it up (J & B Scotch), and I really wasn't taking
care of myself. My Manager Jack Nilon, and his brother Robert (my personal advisor) had enough of
my bad behavior, and they really wanted to get out of the boxing game. I was costing them a ton of
money, and they wanted to 'cash in'.

They came to me with this 'deal' with Cassius Clay, and it sounded good. Everybody would make alot
of money, and even more in the 'rematch'.

At first, I said that nobody would believe this, can we really pull it off. But Jack told me, that William Faversham
(Cassius Clay's Management Team President) had it all worked out, to the 'finest' detail. He even had
the Miami Boxing Commission people in line and in agreement.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:50 PM   #2
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Once upon a time..

I really wanted to get out of boxing. All my mobster friends were either dying or going to prison,
and I really didn't have many friends left.

I was tired of it all. I was getting old. I had told everybody I was born in May 1932, but truthfully,
I was born in March 1927.

When I was to fight Clay in Febrauary 1964, I was really just a month shy of 37. I was tired of it all,
and I didn't want to play the boxing game anymore.

As for my personal life, I was living hard, by boozing it up (J & B Scotch), and I really wasn't taking
care of myself. My Manager Jack Nilon, and his brother Robert (my personal advisor) had enough of
my bad behavior, and they really wanted to get out of the boxing game. I was costing them a ton of
money, and they wanted to 'cash in'.

They came to me with this 'deal' with Cassius Clay, and it sounded good. Everybody would make alot
of money, and even more in the 'rematch'.

At first, I said that nobody would believe this, can we really pull it off. But Jack told me, that William Faversham
(Cassius Clay's Management Team President) had it all worked out, to the 'finest' detail. He even had
the Miami Boxing Commission people in line and in agreement.

And they all lived happily ever after.

The End.
(Or did they ? )

Fixed.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:59 PM   #3
johnmaff36
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

you remind me of the guy outta Alan Partridge in the 3rd series who has a shrine dedicated to him
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Yes, the plan was simple, throw the fight, and my life would be turned upside down
for a year or so. But, in the long run, it would be better for all of the parties involved.

William Faversham told Jack and Robert Nilon that he could have all my legal problems
corrected, if I played ball. Mr. Faversham was a smart businessman, and he had the
connections, so I did believe him. He gave the Nilon's his word, that I would be well
taken care of, but that I had to keep my mouth shut after the 1st fight.

If I did, the rematch would net me over $1,000,000 - and I could retire a wealthy man.
What I had to do was, act like I was getting in shape, but also act like Cassius
was nothing to worry about. In other words, act like I wasn't taking Clay that serious,
like most of the boxing people down in Miami Beach.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:19 PM   #5
TheGreatA
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

I would've hoped for actual statements by Sonny Liston instead of fictional ones.

The only statements by Liston regarding the fight were him criticizing Jersey Joe Walcott for not driving Ali to a neutral corner and allowing Nat Fleischer to influence his count. He seemed legitimately bitter about the loss and felt cheated.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
I would've hoped for actual statements by Sonny Liston instead of fictional ones.

The only statements by Liston regarding the fight were him criticizing Jersey Joe Walcott for not driving Ali to a neutral corner and allowing Nat Fleischer to influence his count. He seemed legitimately bitter about the loss and felt cheated.

The Great A,,,,

This is starting with the 'first fight' in Miami Beach.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

I've heard Sonny Liston was a degenerate gambler.
He spent half his reign as champion in the casinos. I suspect he worked his way through the gratis chips pretty quick and then ran up a tab.

The ones with gambling habits are the athletes most likely to become involved in a fix in their own contests. Esp. when its mob guys they are owing to.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:16 PM   #8
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Correct,,,,,

Nevada Race Horse Handicapper, William Garrett

'Sonny couldn't pick a winner, if there was only one horse in the race'

'The guy was a bad gambler, a bad drinker, and a bad chooser of friends.'
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Correct,,,,,

Nevada Race Horse Handicapper, William Garrett

'Sonny couldn't pick a winner, if there was only one horse in the race'

'The guy was a bad gambler, a bad drinker, and a bad chooser of friends.'
While watching the Clay vs Liston No. 1 fight, I often wondered why Liston looks like he is purposely missing Clay with his punches.....and why Clay goes into his "victory dance" before the ref tells him the fight is over.

Kinda like Clay knew something beforehand.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:32 PM   #10
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71 View Post
While watching the Clay vs Liston No. 1 fight, I often wondered why Liston looks like he is purposely missing Clay with his punches.....and why Clay goes into his "victory dance" before the ref tells him the fight is over.

Kinda like Clay knew something beforehand.
Taking a dive wasn't an easy thing for Liston to do.
He could knock a man out just patting him on the shoulder.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:33 PM   #11
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

there's a lot of Boxing people come & go on these sites, so we all know fine well "the Noble Art", isn't so noble!

so this should not be a surprise, this fight is one of the most famous of questionable fights in history... too think it couldn't have been fixed is quite naive!

to say it was, is still uncertain for many!

personally I don't care, but knowing Boxing it would be No Great Revelation!!!
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Many facts,,

Number 1.

There were no other 'money fights out there. Nobody was willing to pay any decent money to see Sonny versus;

Sonny would have been 'lucky' to get a $200,000 fight purse versus the following list'

a) Eddie Machen
b) Floyd Patterson III
c) Cleveland Williams III
d) Ernie Terrell
e) Zora Folley
f) Robert Cleroux or George Chuvalo (Canadian Crop)
g) Doug Jones, Zora Folley or Billy Daniels
h) Willie Pastrano (Light-Heavyweight Champion)
i) Harold Johnson (35 year-old Light-Heavyweight)
j) European Heavyweights (Henry Cooper, Brian London or Karl Mildenberger)
k) Franco De Piccoli (The 1960 Olympic Heavyweight Gold Medal winner, was 'upset' in 1963)

The 'only' money fight out there was with Ingemar 'Ingo' Johansson', and he had retired.

The 'smart play' for Sonny, who had outstanding debts to pay off, and reimburse those who covered
him for many years, was to lose in a 'controversial way' to the 'Loudmouth', then the public would want a rematch,
and then cash in on the rematch, before getting out of boxing.

Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 07-23-2012 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Many facts,,

Number 1.

There were no other 'money fights out there. Nobody was willing to pay any decent money to see Sonny versus;
a) Eddie Machen
b) Floyd Patterson III
c) Cleveland Williams III
d) Ernie Terrell
e) Zora Folley
f) Robert Cleroux or George Chuvalo (Canadian Crop)
g) Doug Jones, Zora Folley or Billy Daniels
h) Willie Pastrano (Light-Heavyweight Champion)
i) Harold Johnson (35 year-old Light-Heavyweight)
j) European Heavyweights (Henry Cooper, Brian London or Karl Mildenberger)

The 'only' money fight out there was with Ingemar 'Ingo' Johansson', and he had retired.

The 'smart play' for Sonny, who had outstanding debts to pay off and reimburse those who covered
him for many years, was to lose in a 'controversial way', and then cash in on the rematch, before getting
out of boxing.
I agree those fights were fixed. A person would have to be very naive to know Liston's ring record and believe he lost those two fights they way he did.

Do you think Clay knew they were fixed or was he just along for the ride?
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:32 PM   #14
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
If they were fixed for Liston to lose then why did he go for the kill and really try to take out Ali when Ali was complaining about his eyes?
You don't think Sonny Liston could 'pull his punches'.

Plus, the young Cassius Clay could take a punch, was durable and
very adapt at slipping punches, especially 'slow ones'.

Question. 'If Sonny Liston defeats Cassius Clay by a one-sided knockout,
just what does he do next for a big money fight.

Don't forget the 1964 Marginal Rate Income Tax Laws, which would
take 77% of his fight purse.

The answer. The 37 year-old Heavyweight Champion goes,,,,,nowhere.
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Anybody who thinks the 3rd round of this contest wasn't a seriously fought round has to re-evaluate whether he truly knows anything about boxing. Liston nailed Ali with a massive left hook which felled Cleveland Williams among others and followed up with uppercuts that left lesser men on the canvas.

Ali was also legitimately trying to stop him by pouring combination upon combination on Liston whose face was turning into a mess.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkC298csUvA[/ame]

2:55
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