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Old 07-23-2012, 07:20 PM   #16
Senor Pepe'
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Nah,

Just a 37 year-old man, who hadn't really trained that much. Boozed out, and
accustomed to the good life at the Thunderbird Hotel in Las Vegas for the past
5-months.

Suffering from bursitis in his left shoulder, and slowing down from the wear and tear.
His balance was starting to go, and he fought 'spraddle-legged'.

And to take into consideration, the guy fought only a total of '6' minutes in the ring, in
'29' months.

The 'smart money' says, "Sonny Took A Dive".
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Your agenda is starting to make you look foolish.

Coulda,woulda,shoulda.......all theories and myths.

Now if you had any kind of credible evidence.......no, wait a minute....there ISNT any.


As for Clay dancing when he realised Liston wasnt coming out, is that supposed to 'give' the game away? In that case Wilfredo Benitez 'gave' the game away when he knew he bingo'ed Maurice Hope by turning and smiling before Hope hit the canvas. Was that fixed too SP
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:18 PM   #18
Senor Pepe'
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

The bout was 'fixed' in the way that Sonny Liston was not going to 'try' to win.

Not that he couldn't win.

a) Linimiment in the eye's
b) Torn shoulder muscle throwing a punch
c) Pre-fight behavior
d) Sonny Liston's background
e) Re-match contracts pre-signed

Of course, what other modern day fight has all these 'factors'
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:19 PM   #19
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
I would've hoped for actual statements by Sonny Liston instead of fictional ones.

The only statements by Liston regarding the fight were him criticizing Jersey Joe Walcott for not driving Ali to a neutral corner and allowing Nat Fleischer to influence his count. He seemed legitimately bitter about the loss and felt cheated.
As he should, Liston was entitled to continue under the rules
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:23 PM   #20
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Sonny cleared his throat, sat up and began talking like a man who is discussing a painful subject for the absolute last time. "Clay caught me cold and the count was messed up, and that's all they was to it," he said. "Clay knocked me down with a good punch. Anybody can get caught cold in the first round, before you even work up a sweat. And when I was down, Clay stood right over me. No, I never blacked out, not for a second. But I wasn't gonna get up, either, not with him standin' over me. See, you can't get up without puttin' one hand on the floor, and so I couldn't protect myself, and he can hit me on the way up.

"So there was Walcott [Referee Jersey Joe Walcott] and Clay wrasslin' over me and Walcott finally got him to a corner or somethin', and then I got up and Clay come back and we started back to fightin' again.


"And Nat Fletcher [ Nat Fleischer, editor of The Ring Magazine] began wavin' his arms at ringside and Walcott stopped the fight. Nowadays Nat Fletcher says he was just callin' Walcott over to tell him that the timekeeper wanted to see him or somethin', but other people says it was Nat Fletcher stopped the fight.


"I was never counted out. I coulda got up even right after I was hit. And I still felt pretty good when I did get up. I mean I could still go on. What Walcott shoulda done, he shoulda sent Cassius to a neutral corner. When the referees call you out in the center of the ring before a fight, they tells you that: go to a neutral corner. And that's when they count you out, not with no fighter standin' right over you.


"They shouldn't have fighters refereein' no fights no way," Sonny added, now back in his horizontal position. "They should have people that don't get excited."


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Old 07-23-2012, 08:31 PM   #21
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

The Great A

And 'if' Sonny did take a dive, I'm sure he would have revealed 'all the details' about it from the
home that Kirk Kerkorian gave him in Las Vegas at the Stardust Country Club, 9-Months after the
bout in Lewiston, Maine.

Do your homework.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
The Great A

And 'if' Sonny did take a dive, I'm sure he would have revealed 'all the details' from the
home that Kirk Kerkorian gave him in Las Vegas, 6-Months after the bout in Lewiston, Maine.

Do your homework.
To quote Sgt Joe Friday 'Just the facts sir'
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Senor Pepe is the saddest poster on ESB.

Its amazing.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:48 PM   #24
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Senor Pepe is the saddest poster on ESB.

Its amazing.

Ali,,,,,,You troll, and never post anything, because you have nothing to say.

Look at the name you took. Ali.

You have no imagination.

Look at all my threads, and all my viewers.

You my friend, have no one.

Please, start a thread, and lets see where it goes.
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Old 07-23-2012, 11:13 PM   #25
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Pepe' has convined me that Ali's true record, without all the fixes, is 3-1-1: he split with Leon Spinks on the up-and-up, and also got the deserving nod in the third Norton fight.

The rest were all predetermined, except, of course, for the draw with Inoki -- that was completely legit.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:56 AM   #26
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

......first fight...if you look at the film/tape you will see that ali started dancing and waving his arms because he saw that liston was not going to come out of his corner. it was a quick reaction but a legit one.


second fight.....there is nothing more to add to the hundreds of comments that have been made about this one liston tanked it...walcott screwed up and fleischer butted in even though he had no official connection to anything.
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:21 AM   #27
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
Anybody who thinks the 3rd round of this contest wasn't a seriously fought round has to re-evaluate whether he truly knows anything about boxing. Liston nailed Ali with a massive left hook which felled Cleveland Williams among others and followed up with uppercuts that left lesser men on the canvas.

Ali was also legitimately trying to stop him by pouring combination upon combination on Liston whose face was turning into a mess.

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2:55
Liston was defending himself there.
That doesn't mean the fight wasn't fixed.

If the fight was fixed, it would be fixed with Liston having to go a certain number of rounds before bailing out (like he did !). If he's taking some nasty blows in round 3 and he's intending to bail out after 5 or 6 rounds, he has to defend himself in round 3.
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:27 AM   #28
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

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Liston was defending himself there.
That doesn't mean the fight wasn't fixed.

If the fight was fixed, it would be fixed with Liston having to go a certain number of rounds before bailing out (like he did !). If he's taking some nasty blows in round 3 and he's intending to bail out after 5 or 6 rounds, he has to defend himself in round 3.
He was defending himself by trying to knock Ali's head clean off his shoulders. Those same punches dropped Floyd Patterson in a single round, twice. You think he would've taken a chance with knockout punches on an opponent who had been floored by Henry Cooper in his previous bout if he was trying to take a dive?

Ali also tried to quit in round 5 with only Dundee being able to calm him down and make him go back into the ring, yet people are acting like he was "in" on the fix.

Arguing that the 2nd fight was a fix makes more sense, but even then Liston's explanation holds more water than mere speculation about him being afraid of the Black Muslims or the mob or whatever. Walcott did mess it up, and Liston should never have been counted out.
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:32 AM   #29
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
In the first fight with Cassius Clay.

I really wanted to get out of boxing. All my mobster friends were either dying or going to prison,
and I really didn't have many friends left.

I was tired of it all. I was getting old. I had told everybody I was born in May 1932, but truthfully,
I was born in March 1927.

When I was to fight Clay in Febrauary 1964, I was really just a month shy of 37. I was tired of it all,
and I didn't want to play the boxing game anymore.

As for my personal life, I was living hard, by boozing it up (J & B Scotch), and I really wasn't taking
care of myself. My Manager Jack Nilon, and his brother Robert (my personal advisor) had enough of
my bad behavior, and they really wanted to get out of the boxing game. I was costing them a ton of
money, and they wanted to 'cash in'.

They came to me with this 'deal' with Cassius Clay, and it sounded good. Everybody would make alot
of money, and even more in the 'rematch'.

At first, I said that nobody would believe this, can we really pull it off. But Jack told me, that William Faversham
(Cassius Clay's Management Team President) had it all worked out, to the 'finest' detail. He even had
the Miami Boxing Commission people in line and in agreement.
Awesome. A completely fictional "1st person account". Definitely your best one yet
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:48 AM   #30
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Default Re: 'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
He was defending himself by trying to knock Ali's head clean off his shoulders. Those same punches dropped Floyd Patterson in a single round, twice. You think he would've taken a chance with knockout punches on an opponent who had been floored by Henry Cooper in his previous bout if he was trying to take a dive?
You talk as if tanking a heavyweight championship fight is an easy feat and an exact science.

You're saying Liston threw big bombs and that proves he didn't tank the fight. I don't know about that.
When I take the fight as a whole, I can only see it as a very unsatisfactory performance and result that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, a fight that could well have been fixed.



Quote:
Ali also tried to quit in round 5 with only Dundee being able to calm him down and make him go back into the ring, yet people are acting like he was "in" on the fix.
I have no idea whether it was actually fixed, and whether Ali would have been in on it. You could just as easily say Dundee pushing him out in such a blind state and panic should raise suspicions that the fight was fixed and that Dundee knew the fight was bagged.



Quote:
Arguing that the 2nd fight was a fix makes more sense, but even then Liston's explanation holds more water than mere speculation about him being afraid of the Black Muslims or the mob or whatever. Walcott did mess it up, and Liston should never have been counted out.
Liston shouldn't have been on the deck in the first place. Ali screaming at Liston and making those angry gestures and telling him to get up suggest that it was a fake KD, and Ali wasn't amused.
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