'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by Legend X

You talk as if tanking a heavyweight championship fight is an easy feat and an exact science.

You're saying Liston threw big bombs and that proves he didn't tank the fight. I don't know about that.
When I take the fight as a whole, I can only see it as a very unsatisfactory performance and result that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, a fight that could well have been fixed.

I'm saying Liston wasn't an Oscar-worthy actor capable of landing blows that look powerful enough to seem legit but not powerful enough to knock an opponent out, while taking combinations on the chin without falling down despite knowing he would take a dive anyway later on. Anybody who has seen him actually act in TV shows knows so, he was terrible.

And certainly if the rematch was an act, he didn't do a very good job of it as it looked awful with him flopping around the canvas. You just have to wonder how he did such a great job of fixing the fight the first time around.

I have no idea whether it was actually fixed, and whether Ali would have been in on it. You could just as easily say Dundee pushing him out in such a blind state and panic should raise suspicions that the fight was fixed and that Dundee knew the fight was bagged.

Dundee pushed out a lot of other fighters to meet seemingly difficult and even hopeless situations, sometimes less successfully. He did what a trainer should do in those days, urge his fighter on when he still had a chance.

They used to lift the fighters back up after the bell even if they had been knocked out cold in those days.

Ali attempting to quit in his own words suggests that he certainly wasn't in on it, just one bit of proof (among many) that eats away the credibility of Senor Pepe's theories.

Liston shouldn't have been on the deck in the first place. Ali screaming at Liston and making those angry gestures and telling him to get up suggest that it was a fake KD, and Ali wasn't amused.

Fake KD or not, Ali shouldn't have been allowed to stand over and intimidate Liston while the latter was on the canvas. The referee botched it and we never saw whether Liston could've continued, potentially saving his reputation and the fight.

[Legend X]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

I'm saying Liston wasn't an Oscar-worthy actor capable of landing blows that look powerful enough to seem legit but not powerful enough to knock an opponent out, while taking combinations on the chin without falling down despite knowing he would take a dive anyway later on. Anybody who has seen him actually act in TV shows knows so, he was terrible.

Well, doesn't that all suggest he wasn't acting in round 3 ?
That says nothing as to whether he tanked the fight though.

You seem to be answering your own question.
If he was tanking it why throw good punches at Clay ?
I say because he was defending himself.
You say he wasn't a good actor ...... well, that would explain why he was throwing the hard shots then.

And certainly if the rematch was an act, he didn't do a very good job of it as it looked awful with him flopping around the canvas. You just have to wonder how he did such a great job of fixing the fight the first time around.

He didn't do such a great job.
He bowed out with a bum shoulder, and left quite a few people scratching their heads.
"What the hell is this ?" was Marciano's loud exclaimation from ringside.

[Boxed Ears]

His people got to you, didn't they, SP?

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

you remind me of the guy outta Alan Partridge in the 3rd series who has a shrine dedicated to him

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

In the first fight with Cassius Clay.

I really wanted to get out of boxing. All my mobster friends were either dying or going to prison,
and I really didn't have many friends left.

I was tired of it all. I was getting old. I had told everybody I was born in May 1932, but truthfully,
I was born in March 1927.

When I was to fight Clay in Febrauary 1964, I was really just a month shy of 37. I was tired of it all,
and I didn't want to play the boxing game anymore.

As for my personal life, I was living hard, by boozing it up (J & B Scotch), and I really wasn't taking
care of myself. My Manager Jack Nilon, and his brother Robert (my personal advisor) had enough of
my bad behavior, and they really wanted to get out of the boxing game. I was costing them a ton of
money, and they wanted to 'cash in'.

They came to me with this 'deal' with Cassius Clay, and it sounded good. Everybody would make alot
of money, and even more in the 'rematch'.

At first, I said that nobody would believe this, can we really pull it off. But Jack told me, that William Faversham
(Cassius Clay's Management Team President) had it all worked out, to the 'finest' detail. He even had
the Miami Boxing Commission people in line and in agreement.

In the first fight with Cassius Clay.

Sonny Liston speaks - "Well,why did I quit ? I'll tell all you mothers the goddamn truth,from the top. I was simply intimidated by a guy whom I could n't intimidate"

[Lord Tywin]

I hope Im not the only person who gets extremely tired of these agenda driven posts by Pepe/Duce.

[Senor Pepe']

Sonny had to 'play ball' in Miami Beach in February 1964.

He was out of money.

Robert and Jack Nilon were going broke, covering Sonny's living expenses, and his legal bills.

Sonny owed everybody, and his purse from the 1963 Floyd Patterson bout was still held up in courts.

The proposed 'big money bout' with Ingemar Johansson for late-1963 fell through when 'Ingo' retired.

Besides his occassional $3000 guest appearance fee's and 'free-bee' gifts, he had no cash coming in.

The only other income, was from Ash Resnick of the Thunderbird Hotel in Las Vegas, who covered for Sonny
when he was out in Las Vegas in late-1963 and early-1964.

[Senor Pepe']

May 25, 1965

'The Second Fight and the Second Dive'

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[Senor Pepe']

Stepin Fetchit was up in Lewiston, Maine (May 25, 1965)

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[BillB]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Stepin Fetchit was up in Lewiston, Maine (May 25, 1965)

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Stepin Fetchit provided Ali the key to victory in Lewiston.
He taught Ali the Anchor punch that decked Liston. Fetchit had learned it from Jack Johnson.

Ali said this was true and he doesn't lie.

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by Legend X

Well, doesn't that all suggest he wasn't acting in round 3 ?
That says nothing as to whether he tanked the fight though.

You seem to be answering your own question.
If he was tanking it why throw good punches at Clay ?
I say because he was defending himself.
You say he wasn't a good actor ...... well, that would explain why he was throwing the hard shots then.

This makes no sense. If he was fighting and defending himself, then he wasn't tanking it. He only tanked it after having his face busted up and having thrown everything he had at Clay to no avail.

Therefore there is no case of the fight being a fix and a pre-arranged affair, but simply Liston having had enough against a better opponent. There has been no concrete proof whatsoever towards the fight being a fix and plenty to suggest that it was legitimate. At that stage you have to admit that the case isn't very strong or that there isn't a case at all.

LaMotta-Fox was a fix due to LaMotta by his own accord holding back from knocking out his opponent and ceasing to defend himself in order to force a referee stoppage. Liston did not hold back with his punches and he was defending himself constantly by bobbing and weaving as well as blocking.

[Senor Pepe']

No, everything makes sense.

Look at the overall,

They wanted the fight in Miami Beach to be questioned, so it would lead to the
'rematch' which it did.

A) Did Sonny tank it
B) Did Sonny hurt his shoulder
C) Did Sonny turn over, so the mob could make a 'killing' on the odds
D) Was Cassius Clay that good
E) What about the Black Muslims
F) What about the NAACP
G) What about the 'linimiment'
H) How the hell does a guy who has a life-and-death battle with Doug Jones beat Sonny Liston
I) How does this guy, who nearly gets knocked out by Henry Cooper, withstand Sonny Liston

There was enough ammunition, so that there was a Senate Investigation.

[Longhhorn71]

What about the Liston Group getting promotional considerations on Clay's next 3 fights if he won Fight One?

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by Longhhorn71

What about the Liston Group getting promotional considerations on Clay's next 3 fights if he won Fight One?

So following that logic then jimmy braddocks fight with louis mustnt have been on the level since he got a percentage of all Louis's fight purses as champ

[Senor Pepe']

John Maff,,,,,,,,,

Now you're stretching it.

Joe Louis and his management agree'd to give up 10%, to get a shot at the title
before Max Schmeling. Because Max Schmeling was supposed to fight James Braddock next.

The deal was so good, that James Braddock took the 'smart money deal', knowing that he would lose.