Razor Ruddock vs Riddick Bowe + question

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by salty trunks

Are we talking about Ruddock being shot and ruined now?

Ruddock took a lot punishment, but mentally he was very strong and thats what takes the most out of fighters afterwards.

-Yes. That's only why I brought up Jackson in the first place. My point was that Ruddock did what was expected of him against Page and Jackson in his first two fights after Tyson. And there were no reports of him being "ruined" or "shot"..etc, he was the same old Razor. For a ruined fighter see Gatti/Damgaard and Gatti/Baldomir following the Mayweather loss.

-Ruddock looked pretty confident to me against Lewis. It was probably his undoing but that's typical Razor, showing no respect for his opponent's power regardless of how dangerous they were. You have balls to stroll around Lewis and Tyson with no concern.

[salty trunks]

Well just like it was hard to tell what Tyson really had left facing McNeeley the same could be said for Ruddock. As Ruddock stepped up his competition he didnt look so great. Remember Lewis was pretty raw during this time and he looked pretty dreadful against Morrison too. Tyson also got progressively worse looking, as he faed better foes. Its safe to say Ruddock is telling the truth when he said Tyson took most of what he had left.

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by Azzer85

Yes but Ruddock isnt Ali.

Simple question, Mike Tyson beats the shit out of you for 19 rounds. Are you going to be the same afterwards?

Ruddock himself said him and Tyson ruined each other in their fights

-You are the one who brought Ali up so that's on you.

-For starters, I wouldn't say Tyson beat the shit out of Ruddock for 19 rounds. Ruddock took some sporadic hard shots but they did more wrestling than anything.

-I've read that interview and I don't put much stock into it. Wade and Morrison are the performances I would point out to see a glaringly obvious "past prime" Ruddock.

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by salty trunks

Well just like it was hard to tell what Tyson really had left facing McNeeley the same could be said for Ruddock. As Ruddock stepped up his competition he didnt look so great. Remember Lewis was pretty raw during this time and he looked pretty dreadful against Morrison too. Tyson also got progressively worse looking, as he faed better foes. Its safe to say Ruddock is telling the truth when he said Tyson took most of what he had left.

I don't get the analogy. Tyson blew out McNeely because he wasn't ruined. He was still an elite HW and proved to be so, by unifying the titles within the year.

Botha is a rusty fighter who might be slipping. Now Tyson/Nielsen and Tyson/Lewis..that is a "past prime" fighter. And Tyson/McBride..that is a "ruined" fighter.

[salty trunks]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

I don't get the analogy. Tyson blew out McNeely because he wasn't ruined. He was still an elite HW and proved to be so, by unifying the titles within the year.

Botha is a rusty fighter who might be slipping. Now Tyson/Nielsen and Tyson/Lewis..that is a "past prime" fighter. And Tyson/McBride..that is a "ruined" fighter.

The analogy is looking great against shit fighters is meaningless.

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by salty trunks

The analogy is looking great against shit fighters is meaningless.

McNeely and Jackson weren't shit.

And looking great agaisnt sub par competition is what Ruddock and Tyson made a career of, unforunately. Now when they started looking average against sub par competition and there was evidence of badly diminished abilities, than we can start talking about fighters being "ruined"

A ruined fighter is "shit". If you are shit, you are going to look like shit, even if its against other shit.

And if beating Jackson in the usual manner he beat overmatched opponents isn't evidence Ruddock was still capable for you, than you are going to have provide evidence that Ruddock was ruined.

[salty trunks]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

McNeely and Jackson weren't shit.

And looking great agaisnt sub par competition is what Ruddock and Tyson made a career of, unforunately. Now when they started looking average against sub par competition and there was evidence of badly diminished abilities, than we can start talking about fighters being "ruined"

A ruined fighter is "shit". If you are shit, you are going to look like shit, even if its against other shit.

And if beating Jackson in the usual manner he beat overmatched opponents isn't evidence Ruddock was still capable for you, than you are going to have provide evidence that Ruddock was ruined.

Tyson got stopped by Holyfield and Lewis was knocked out by Mcall and almost by Bruno. There's some evidence for those two that they were overated in the actual ability they realistically had at that point in their careers.

Ruddock was knocked out twice against the two better named opponents he stepped up against (after Tyson), and Lewis was overated as hell at that point. Jackson and McNeeley were not deserving top ten contenders. They were shit. As far as Ruddock being ruined, I think his own words were the Tyson fight took everything out of him. Do you think the man is lying when he says that?

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by salty trunks

Tyson got stopped by Holyfield and Lewis was knocked out by Mcall and almost by Bruno. There's some evidence for those two that they were overated in the actual ability they realistically had at that point in their careers.

Ruddock was knocked out twice against the two better named opponents he stepped up against (after Tyson), and Lewis was overated as hell at that point. Jackson and McNeeley were not deserving top ten contenders. They were shit. As far as Ruddock being ruined, I think his own words were the Tyson fight took everything out of him.

Do you think the man is lying when he says that?

-So what exactly are you saying? If not for Tyson, Ruddock would have walked through Lewis. Doubtful, not with that disgraceful defense and already suspectible chin. Remember supposively prime Ruddock got dropped and put into several hairy situations against a washed up Bonecrusher because couldn't get out of the way of those slow clubs.

-Ok, everyone is overrated.

-Yes.

[salty trunks]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

-So what exactly are you saying? If not for Tyson, Ruddock would have walked through Lewis. Doubtful, not with that disgraceful defense and already suspectible chin. Remember supposively prime Ruddock got dropped and put into several hairy situations against a washed up Bonecrusher because couldn't get out of the way of those slow clubs.

-Ok, everyone is overrated.

-Yes.

No Im not saying that, all Im saying is that sometimes hindsight tells the true tale. Ruddock was never that great, but he was better than he showed against both Lewis and Morrison, specifically against Tyson where he took a lot of hard punishment and was able to get up from big shots. Ruddock's mental toughness was pretty good in those Tyson fights. I think that was mostly the difference in Ruddock.

Lewis was overated after the Ruddock win, that was proven. Maybe Ruddocks decline was part of overating Lewis? A tougher Ruddock could have easily tagged Lewis with a big shot like Mcall was able to.

Tyson was overated when he faced Holyfield, that was proven.

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by salty trunks

Lewis was overated after the Ruddock win, that was proven. Maybe Ruddocks decline was part of overating Lewis? A tougher Ruddock could have easily tagged Lewis with a big shot like Mcall was able to.

Tyson was overated when he faced Holyfield, that was proven.

-You can't possibly lump the Ruddock of the Lewis and Morrison fights together. He had been inactive for health/legal issues and was in obvious rough physical shape in the Morrison fight(didin't even look like the same man), and while you scoff at his blowout of Jackson, his last fight in this case was a stinker against Wade. The performance was so bad, Ruddock got booed out of the damn building. Now that was a showing from a declined fighter. Just like Morrison likes them.

-Ruddock isn't tagging anybody once he dips his head into right hands. He was acting too tough against Lewis for my liking, even the tinest bit of respect for Lewis' power would have served him good. McCall was durable enough to walk Lewis down, he also had Steward in his corner training him to throw straight right hands..not loopy uppercuts from the outside.

-McCall was better equiped to take Lewis out than Ruddock.
-Even though they were hardly Tyson's best outings, Lewis was better equiped to take out Ruddock early than Tyson.

-And Ruddock could have probably matched up better against Mccall.

Just the way it is, shot, overrated, underrated, got nothing to do with it.

[salty trunks]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

-You can't possibly lump the Ruddock of the Lewis and Morrison fights together. He had been inactive for health/legal issues and was in obvious rough physical shape in the Morrison fight(didin't even look like the same man), and while you scoff at his blowout of Jackson, his last fight in this case was a stinker against Wade. The performance was so bad, Ruddock got booed out of the damn building. Now that was a showing from a declined fighter. Just like Morrison likes them.

-Ruddock isn't tagging anybody once he dips his head into right hands. He was acting too tough against Lewis for my liking, even the tinest bit of respect for Lewis' power would have served him good. McCall was durable enough to walk Lewis down, he also had Steward in his corner training him to throw straight right hands..not loopy uppercuts from the outside.

-McCall was better equiped to take Lewis out than Ruddock.
-Even though they were hardly Tyson's best outings, Lewis was better equiped to take out Ruddock early than Tyson.

-And Ruddock could have probably matched up better against Mccall.

Just the way it is, shot, overrated, underrated, got nothing to do with it.

You sure can compare them because Morrison was the next step down from Lewis and Ruddock couldnt get past him so he was clearly declining further.

Mcall was not better equipped to beat Lewis, thats just . Same goes for Lewis being better equipped to take out Ruddock. Thats a worse theory than what Im proposing as my timeline at least shows clear decline in both wins/losses and opponents. Mcall and Lewis didnt show a special ability of taking out tall guys. Both Ruddock and Lewis were caught by big shots, at least Lewis had his eyes open when he nailed Ruddock. Ruddock was hit just as hard by Tyson, but he had better legs underneath him when he faced Tyson. Ruddock showed the same kind of problems against Morrison, he got up but his legs were gone. Ruddock was still a rated fighter, but his ability to stay in the mix started to decline quickly after the Tyson fights.

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by salty trunks

You sure can compare them because Morrison was the next step down from Lewis and Ruddock couldnt get past him so he was clearly declining further.

Mcall was not better equipped to beat Lewis, thats just . Same goes for Lewis being better equipped to take out Ruddock. Thats a worse theory than what Im proposing as my timeline at least shows clear decline in both wins/losses and opponents. Mcall and Lewis didnt show a special ability of taking out tall guys. Both Ruddock and Lewis were caught by big shots, at least Lewis had his eyes open when he nailed Ruddock. Ruddock was hit just as hard by Tyson, but he had better legs underneath him when he faced Tyson. Ruddock showed the same kind of problems against Morrison, he got up but his legs were gone. Ruddock was still a rated fighter, but his ability to stay in the mix started to decline quickly after the Tyson fights.

-Sorry but three years of health problems and inactivity is cause to seperate the soft old looking Ruddock of the Morrison fight from the Lewis bout.

- all you want. McCall was more durable pressure fighter than Ruddock and he had a hard right hand that Steward programmed him to throw. That is going to work better against Lewis than a shaky chin fighter with no defense, aimlessly jumping around with his chin out, looking for his RAZOR UPPERCUT against a taller man!

-I've analyzed the stylistic advantages Lewis had over Tyson in a Ruddock match to death.

-Again, i see the only evidence of a Ruddock decline is that Lewis knocked him out. Well, Lennox Lewis right hands tend to do that. I suppose a mentally tougher Ruddock could somehow will his way thorugh that onslaught? Keep dreaming.

The fact of the matter is Tyson is a fucking midget, always had problems with clinches, and wasn't at his sharpest to begin with. Ruddock could bear hug and wrestle Mike to find his legs when ever he got dropped or hurt. Lewis was too strong and big for that shit, he just pushed Ruddock off when he tried to hold and finished him. If Ruddock wasn't smothering him with his body weight, Tyson would have probably also had a 2nd round TKO over Ruddock. The fact that Ruddock got up from that monster first right cross, tells me had as much in the tank as he did against Tyson. And I'm sure if Lewis was 5'9" and only 220, Ruddock wouldn't have had in trouble smothering his way out of the early rounds.

[zadfrak]

In addition to Bowe and commander Vander, there certainly were other top 10 guys that Ruddock never fought. A very thin resume and facing more top 10 competition consistently doesn't translate to additional wins, it translates to more losses.

[MrBumboclart]

Styles all wrong for Ruddock.

He'd walk straight into that monster jab and Riddick would set up the KO in no time.

I wouldn't be suprised if this didn't go past 4-5 rounds.