'Why I Took A Dive' by Sonny Liston

[BillB]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

No, everything makes sense.

Look at the overall,

They wanted the fight in Miami Beach to be questioned, so it would lead to the
'rematch' which it did.

A) Did Sonny tank it - I think he did.
B) Did Sonny hurt his shoulder- I think Liston went into the fight with a bum shoulder.
C) Did Sonny turn over, so the mob could make a 'killing' on the odds- He took a dive. I'm not sure of the motive.
D) Was Cassius Clay that good - No
E) What about the Black Muslims - They didn't enter the equation until after the first fight.
F) What about the NAACP
G) What about the 'linimiment'- Fake story.
H) How the hell does a guy who has a life-and-death battle with Doug Jones beat Sonny Liston- He doesn'r beat Liston in a legit fight.
I) How does this guy, who nearly gets knocked out by Henry Cooper, withstand Sonny Liston- He doesn't

There was enough ammunition, so that there was a Senate Investigation.

..

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

John Maff,,,,,,,,,

Now you're stretching it.

Joe Louis and his management agree'd to give up 10%, to get a shot at the title
before Max Schmeling. Because Max Schmeling was supposed to fight James Braddock next.

The deal was so good, that James Braddock took the 'smart money deal', knowing that he would lose.

IM stretching it!!! Are you serious??


So its ok for you to suggest all kinds of sinister stuff without proof yet i made a throwaway comment following the other guys logic (which i dont believe) about a deal which DID happen and is widely documented, yet im the one being told im stretching it????

[Senor Pepe']

Sonny did make it look good through the first 4 Rounds.

Then he threw the 'fake hard punches' in Round 5, while Cassius Clay
was blinking.

[Senor Pepe']

Dr. Alexander Robbins (Miami Boxing Commission Chief Physician)

The 'good' Doctor took '12' X-Rays of Sonny's left shoulder.

It was determined that there were multiple tears in the muscle, torn tendons
and progressive bursitis had been an ongoing ailment.

Later, Edward Lassman (Miami Boxing Commission) stated that the injury was so severe,
that there was no possible way for Sonny to throw a decent left hand. It was later revealed,
that Sonny had developed this problem in 1963, that is why he limited his sparring sessions
to a minimum.

Florida District Attorney, Richard Gersein wanted to know why this injury was not revealed
before the fight, and why was it not discovered during the pre-fight examination. According
to the District Attorney, Sonny Liston withheld the information concerning his injury.

Scott Hampton, a journalist for the Miami-Herald, later asked Jack Nilon (Sonny Liston's Manager)
"Why didn't you just postpone the bout, until Sonny's shoulder healed". Hampton was abruptly told, "Listen kid,
we needed the fight purse money now, not in 6-month's. And I don't know if Sonny's shoulder will ever heal".

[Legend X]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

This makes no sense. If he was fighting and defending himself, then he wasn't tanking it. He only tanked it after having his face busted up and having thrown everything he had at Clay to no avail.

Of course it makes sense.
If Sonny Liston has arranged/intends to lose a fight in round 6 or 7, he's not going to allow himself to be overwhelmed in round 3 is he ?
That's simple enough.

Therefore there is no case of the fight being a fix and a pre-arranged affair, but simply Liston having had enough against a better opponent. There has been no concrete proof whatsoever towards the fight being a fix and plenty to suggest that it was legitimate. At that stage you have to admit that the case isn't very strong or that there isn't a case at all.

It's one of many suspicious fights that have the fix rumour surrounding them but no solid proof. Some are more compelling cases than others.
I think it sits somewhere in the middle of the pile in that regard.

LaMotta-Fox was a fix due to LaMotta by his own accord holding back from knocking out his opponent and ceasing to defend himself in order to force a referee stoppage.

LaMotta's was perhaps the worstly executed tank job in history.

Liston did not hold back with his punches and he was defending himself constantly by bobbing and weaving as well as blocking.

Look at round 6 again.

[Legend X]

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

So following that logic then jimmy braddocks fight with louis mustnt have been on the level since he got a percentage of all Louis's fight purses as champ

That wasn't the actual deal.

Braddock and his manager Gould were entitled to 10% of any heavyweight championship bout that Mike Jacobs' promoted in the next 10 years.
Braddock could have won the fight and retired and still made the money.

The deal wasn't actually tied to Louis. It just turned out that way.


And, yes, ALL those guys (Braddock, Jacobs, Gould, Louis and his handlers) should be open to scrutiny for the deals they did and the company they kept.

[Senor Pepe']

Yes,,,,,,,Legend X

"Round 6" at The Convention Center in Miami Beach.

Sonny put in very little effort, and never even attempted a right hand.

He was allowing Cassius Clay to hit him, and was begging Clay to hit him with a
big right hand.

Cassius Clay himself, was winded. And by the 2:00 Mark, he was showing signs of
arm weariness.

Sonny, suprisingly, still had his hands held up high.

Though Cassius Clay won the round, he only landed one good hard punch in the round,
a right hand at the 0:39 Mark.

On the scope, it sure didn't look like a round where a Champion would quit afterwords.

[Legend X]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Yes,,,,,,,Legend X

"Round 6" at The Convention Center in Miami Beach.

Sonny put in very little effort, and never even attempted a right hand.

He was allowing Cassius Clay to hit him, and was begging Clay to hit him with a
big right hand.

Though Cassius Clay won the round, he only landed one good hard punch in the round,
a right hand in the first minute.

On the scope, it sure didn't look like a round where a Champion would quit afterwords.

It was by far the slowest-paced round of the fight.
Clay didn't do an awful lot and Liston did absolutely nothing. Clay is stood right in front of Sonny, yet Sonny does nothing. Doesn't even try any rough stuff, just shuts down completely.
Liston at one point just stands there and gives Clay free shots. Then after taking a punch or two, he puts in some token head movement ... about five seconds too late. It's a peculiar round.

[Senor Pepe']

Legend X,

It was the time to quit, because Cassius Clay was starting to 'gas out'.

Nobody would have believed the arm weary Clay stopping Sonny after the 6th Round.

Sonny played the part, and performed 'the scripted move'.

[Ali_]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

I hope Im not the only person who gets extremely tired of these agenda driven posts by Pepe/Duce.

No you aren't. Pepe is the worst poster in Classic and possibly ESB as his posts are the most consistent in ludicrous nature yet earnest tone. If you didn't know he was serious you'd think he was posting bigoted boxing satire.

I hold the theory that he may, infact, be posting from a funny-farm.

[Saintpat]

Originally Posted by Legend X

Liston was defending himself there.
That doesn't mean the fight wasn't fixed.

If the fight was fixed, it would be fixed with Liston having to go a certain number of rounds before bailing out (like he did !).

Which makes every fight suspicious -- don't all of them go "a certain number of rounds"?

Where's the outrage of Marcel Cerdan throwing the LaMotta fight? Nobody was more mobbed up than Jake, and here's a champ with a 111-3 record "quitting" on his stool.

But, of course, Cerdan went "a certain number of rounds" first -- which he did!!!!

[Senor Pepe']

Ali_

Must be the most 'self-serving idiot' on East Side Boxing.

First, he steals a great athlete's name, and then he posts like a 'third-rate amateur'.

He just can't understand why,,,,,,Sonny Liston would have a reason to 'Take-A-Dive'.

[Legend X]

Originally Posted by Saintpat

Which makes every fight suspicious -- don't all of them go "a certain number of rounds"?

Where's the outrage of Marcel Cerdan throwing the LaMotta fight? Nobody was more mobbed up than Jake, and here's a champ with a 111-3 record "quitting" on his stool.

But, of course, Cerdan went "a certain number of rounds" first -- which he did!!!!

Look, my statement was in direct response to the question "why wouldn't Liston have gone down in the 3rd round instead of fighting back ?" or something like that.

I'm just stating the obvious. IF it was a fix (and I'm not saying it was) then it would almost certainly have been arranged to go over so many rounds, or under so many rounds.


And, yes, suspicions have been raised regrading Cerdan v LaMotta.

But heavyweights - and Ali in particular, and Liston too to some extent - grab more attention than middleweights.

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by Ali_

No you aren't. Pepe is the worst poster in Classic and possibly ESB as his posts are the most consistent in ludicrous nature yet earnest tone. If you didn't know he was serious you'd think he was posting bigoted boxing satire.

I hold the theory that he may, infact, be posting from a funny-farm.

Hes actually a very good poster with a great insight into boxing back then and before. He adds some info on here that is more than welcome. However, i think he just has a bee in his bonnet regarding this fight

[Senor Pepe']

Thank You John Maff

I like to look at 'that fight' from a different angle.

In my opinion, it was completely a 'money issue' for Sonny Liston and his Managers
Jack and Robert Nilon.

Simply put, they could make '5x' as much money with the rematch and 'options' on
Cassius Clay, then winning and fighting the likes of Eddie Machen, Ernie Terrell or
George Chuvalo.

Jack Nilon, said that Sonny was playing the role of a Las Vegas Gambler since hanging
out with Ashe Resnick, and he didn't want to put in the hard work of training anymore.

He was 37, and was slow. In the gym sessions prior to the fight in Miami Beach,
he looked like a 'Freight Train' pulling out of the train yard. Chugging so slow.