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Old 07-23-2012, 04:28 PM   #31
Seamus
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Default Re: Question about Marciano and Dempsey

[quote=janitor;13426524]
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It is generaly taken as a given thet the reigning lineal champion is an elite fighter.
How many hit points does he get for that?
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:38 PM   #32
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Default Re: Question about Marciano and Dempsey

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post

Some people seem to be so obsessed with the argument based on size, that they assume that a fighter from an earlier period only fought smaller opponents without even looking at their record!

If you are going to apply that argument, then at least apply it consistently and weigh it in favour of an early fighter if they actualy did fight bigger opponents.
We've had this discussion before. People in general were significantly smaller back then. As a consequence, big guys (210+lbs in fighting shape) were so rare that the big guy talent pool was tiny. As a consequence, despite being much bigger, they were outfought by the smaller guys due to the talent gap.

Nowadays, this is different, and 180lbs fighters can't compete with the bigger guys because they're big and talented, instead of just big.

So, no, I'm not at all impressed by wild swinging Fulton and no skill Willard. Nevermind getting put on your ass twice by one of them.


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Originally Posted by janitor
I think that Marciano chose the right opponents, but from a stylistic standpoint I would have to consider Dempsey better proven against bigger fighters.
He fought the #1 contender 5 times and the #2 contender once. I'm not sure how you can call that "choosing the right opponents", unless you're speaking from a legacy point of view.

But yes, Dempsey is more proven against bigger guys. His explosive style and extra height (compared to Rocky) also helps him a bit. Still, I'd bet my house that Marciano beats Willard (37 years old or prime) from pillar to post, and he'd knock Firpo straight back into Argentina.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:03 PM   #33
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Default Re: Question about Marciano and Dempsey

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Was A Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis, Archie Moore all past there primes closing in on 40 years of age.? Of course they were...Pray tell me S, if Marciano was almost 40 years old and these 4 fighters were 31-2 years of age ,would you still pick Marciano over them ?
We are getting nowhere in this thread, so time to say sayonara !
Charles only had 2 years on Marciano and Walcott and Moore were in the best parts of their careers. Louis is the only one of the bunch who had clearly seen much better days, and even he was still a threat to the division.

Like it or not, Marciano faced the better fighters and he was arguably more impressive against all of his competition than Dempsey was against his.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:15 PM   #34
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Default Re: Question about Marciano and Dempsey

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
We've had this discussion before. People in general were significantly smaller back then. As a consequence, big guys (210+lbs in fighting shape) were so rare that the big guy talent pool was tiny. As a consequence, despite being much bigger, they were outfought by the smaller guys due to the talent gap.

Nowadays, this is different, and 180lbs fighters can't compete with the bigger guys because they're big and talented, instead of just big.

So, no, I'm not at all impressed by wild swinging Fulton and no skill Willard. Nevermind getting put on your ass twice by one of them.
That is something of a circular argument.

If the bigger fighters of that era loose to somebody smaller than them, you cite it as evidence that they were never all that good, but if they beat the smaller men it would also be taken to reinforce your argument.

I also question the asertion that the fact that there were less big men during that period is in itself a justification to dismiss any big fighter from that era out of hand.

It strikes me that you are effectivley working a getout clause into your own argument. If you think that size is such a big deal, then give credit to fighters who beat larger opponents regardless of era. The laws of physics are still the same.

Quote:
He fought the #1 contender 5 times and the #2 contender once. I'm not sure how you can call that "choosing the right opponents", unless you're speaking from a legacy point of view.
I am clarifying the point that I don't think that there were some larger heavyweights he should have fought instead.

Quote:
But yes, Dempsey is more proven against bigger guys. His explosive style and extra height (compared to Rocky) also helps him a bit. Still, I'd bet my house that Marciano beats Willard (37 years old or prime) from pillar to post, and he'd knock Firpo straight back into Argentina.
I would bet my house that he would need more rounds than Dempsey to do it as well.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:32 PM   #35
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Default Re: Question about Marciano and Dempsey

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I would bet my house that he would need more rounds than Dempsey to do it as well.
Against Willard, most likely. Against Firpo? I see an early Marciano KO, without several knockdowns on both sides. I think Marciano would eat Firpo and knock him out cold with a bomb very early into the fight. Initiation a wild fire fight with Marciano with very poor defense is asking to be hospitalized.
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:22 PM   #36
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Default Re: Question about Marciano and Dempsey

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
That is something of a circular argument.

If the bigger fighters of that era loose to somebody smaller than them, you cite it as evidence that they were never all that good, but if they beat the smaller men it would also be taken to reinforce your argument.
How so? If the bigger fighters beat the smaller ones, then this would mean there is a good amount of talent at the higher weights. But there wasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I also question the asertion that the fact that there were less big men during that period is in itself a justification to dismiss any big fighter from that era out of hand.

It strikes me that you are effectivley working a getout clause into your own argument. If you think that size is such a big deal, then give credit to fighters who beat larger opponents regardless of era. The laws of physics are still the same.
You don't understand my previously stated point. What I'm saying is that the talent pool at higher weights was so small, that the few big men who were there were relatively unathletic, compared to their smaller counterparts. If they beat skilled big men, it'd be a different matter all together. But they weren't around. The only exception is Harry Wills, but they never fought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I am clarifying the point that I don't think that there were some larger heavyweights he should have fought instead.
Ah, my apologies.

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I would bet my house that he would need more rounds than Dempsey to do it as well.
Most likely, yes. Styles and all that.
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:52 AM   #37
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Default Re: Question about Marciano and Dempsey

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
So Jack Dempsey gets credited here for destroying big men who are clumsy, untalented, uncoordinated...yet he gets more credit for it than Marciano who actually beat a 6'2 213lb fighter(37 year old Joe Louis) who knew how to jab, had sound fundamentals, had good skills, knew the concept of timing, was crafty, and used solid defense.

None of Dempsey's 6' + 200lb + opponents had anywhere near remotely these kind of skills....so why does Jack get so much credit for destroying big dumb tree logs, while Marciano actually had to beat a fighter much bigger/taller than him who actually knew how to fight despite his advanced age?
I think you'll find Fred Fulton was neither clumsy , untalented or uncordinated. He knew how to jab too.In 1918 , the year Dempsey kod him, he had beaten
Tom Cowler
Frank Moran
Porky Flynn
Gunboat Smith . all by stoppage .
Drawn with Billy Miske

The year previously he had .
kod Flynn, made Carl Morris & Charley Weinert foul out , and put Sam Langford in the hospital.
He had 46 fights under his belt when he fought Dempsey, winning all but 5 of them, so one assumes he had the basics of the Sweet Science.
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:56 AM   #38
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Default Re: Question about Marciano and Dempsey

well, I have Rock a good few places higher than Jack so.....
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:57 AM   #39
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Default Re: Question about Marciano and Dempsey

Dempsey would have done the same thing to the Louis that Marciano fought - only quicker.

And Marciano wouldn't have taken apart the competition that Dempsey did in his time with such ease. Carpentier, Firpo - I can imagine all these men giving Marciano 10 round+ wars.

One thing that is always overlooked about Jack is his run to the title. Check it out to see how he just walked through the competition, he knocked out two of the highest ranking heavyweights in the world at the time in one round a piece.
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Old 07-25-2012, 04:04 AM   #40
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Default Re: Question about Marciano and Dempsey

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Originally Posted by MrBumboclart View Post
Dempsey would have done the same thing to the Louis that Marciano fought - only quicker.

And Marciano wouldn't have taken apart the competition that Dempsey did in his time with such ease. Carpentier, Firpo - I can imagine all these men giving Marciano 10 round+ wars.
I can't argue with this.
Dempsey tended to get the job done in quick time. He was extremely fast out of the gate, similar to Tyson in that way.
Marciano could end fights very early too, but generally he would grind his opponents down, more like Joe Frazier. Or he would catch up with them later in the fight.
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