sir henry cooper

[choklab]

Originally Posted by kenmore

Cooper was a good fighter, but by the standards of later generations, he was just a cruiserweight. Lennox, Haye, Akinwande, Bugner, and Bruno -- in their primes -- all would have been too much for Cooper.

Lennox Lewis was an ATG so yes, he was too much for cooper. The others? No way. Mere belt holders one and all. Cooper was a seasoned fighter who could win competitive fights, box 15 strong rounds, was a fast, genuine world class box puncher who (had there been more titles around in his era) would have been a belt holder just like Haye, Akinwande and co. Henry was 6’2’’ 195lb without PED’s but trained lower for speed as was the trend at that time. On his day, without getting cut he would be a tough fight for any fighter and a lot better than many second string champions.

[jowcol]

Originally Posted by choklab

Then machen, folley and miteff beat valdes and they would lose to said "gooftroopers"...
Cooper, london and mildenburger beat machen, folley and miteff. does that make them gooftroopers too?

London's win over Folley doesn't mean squat! pvp Folley KO's him EVERY time.
Brian gets overrated IMO because of the Patterson/Ali title 'shots'.
Outside of Cooper, I think there were a good handful of Brits better than him.
A decision loss to Quarry in 65-66? That was a young, green, Jerry.
If someone disagrees then tell me what his attributes were that would warrant him stepping into the ring on a world class stage? I respect all fighters but he was, on the big stage, a tomato waiting to get squashed.
My $0.02

[kenmore]

Originally Posted by choklab

Lennox Lewis was an ATG so yes, he was too much for cooper. The others? No way. Mere belt holders one and all. Cooper was a seasoned fighter who could win competitive fights, box 15 strong rounds, was a fast, genuine world class box puncher who (had there been more titles around in his era) would have been a belt holder just like Haye, Akinwande and co. Henry was 6’2’’ 195lb without PED’s but trained lower for speed as was the trend at that time. On his day, without getting cut he would be a tough fight for any fighter and a lot better than many second string champions.

Cooper's problems went deeper than just cuts. He lacked durability, too. Folley and Patterson KO'd Cooper with single shots. I don't think Cooper could have troubled the world-level heavyweights of the '70s, '80s, '90s, and today.

As for the Brit scene, Akinwande would have poleaxed Cooper. Haye would have taken his head off. The only reason Cooper gave Bugner a good fight is because, at the time, Bugner was young and inexperienced.

[babaluma]

Yeah if Cooper fights any of these guys physically he would be outclassed but in a fantasy land where everyone was shrunk to, what 185 pounds (?) then Cooper had the heart to do the business on fighters like Akinwande (god he was awful) Hide and Michael Bentt at least. Even Bruno, I just have visions of Bruno getting short circuited by the hammer. People under rate having a lot of bottle and good conditioning, Coopers professionalism would get him past most of the 80's paper champs I reckon. Cooper is Yet another contender who would be champion in todays alphabet soup.

But hey it's Henry! I am probably just being a deluded Brit...

[kenmore]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

I'd say Cooper was the sixth best British heavyweight. After Lewis,Fitzimmons,Farr,Bugner and Bruno.

Did you see that mindless article in Ring Magazine this month, about British heavyweights? The author doesn't include Bugner among Britain's all-time top-10 heavies. What an idiotic writer.

[jowcol]

Originally Posted by FastHands(beeb)

My last statement says it all? Says what exactly? Sure, there are Cooper nut-huggers out there...but there are many more Ali nut-huggers out there too.
I didn't mention the alleged additional time anywhere in my original post...and if you read my original post, I also said that "but the punch didn't land earlier, so here we are".
Any fan who claims Ali wasn;t hurt (that may or may not include you), is in denial, imo.
Clinton, with respect, I was merely offering an opinion to balance inferences downplaying the signifance of the KD and the effect it had on Ali during the fight. The level of hurt it caused Ali is significant in Cooper's career because he come closer to many of Ali's opponents to possibly defeating Ali.

Jowcol from Indy, IN here. Clinton, I respect your boxing knowledge but I'm going to have to weigh in on the side of my 'continent' brother FastHands here.
FH and I both know that the time between rounds 4 & 5 in their first scrap was only about 67 or so seconds. 'Don't go shooting all us dogs just because many of us have fleas!'
IMO the Cooper KD was much more significant than the 15th round Frazier drop in the FOTC. Both of those men were exhausted at the time.
Again, IMO, Henry epitomizes everything that is good about boxing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see many Cooper 'nut-huggers' here at ESB. I see many more Bugner fanatics, a fighter who I initially loved but showed that he had no real ''left-tit'' meddle and lost every major bout that was thrown in his lap.
Folley did dispatch Henry in the rematch in 1960 fairly quickly but I've seen about half of their 58 scrap and I think Henry copped a close decision there, coming on in the late rounds. That victory alone trumps anything the underachieving Bugner ever did.
And let's not forget Sir Henry inviting Ali over to England a few years ago for a final tribute to his opponent/friend.
OK, you want me to criticize Cooper? He should have come state-side for some fights (he always mentioned the huge taxes and expenses in making the trip but other Euro guys came over) Would have liked to have seen him in the 8-man 67' elimination tourney; the Patterson bout in 9/66 probably eliminated him from consideration.
Bottom line?
Henry is beyond reproach.
Simply a great example of boxing the way it (should always) be.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by jowcol

Jowcol from Indy, IN here. Clinton, I respect your boxing knowledge but I'm going to have to weigh in on the side of my 'continent' brother FastHands here.
FH and I both know that the time between rounds 4 & 5 in their first scrap was only about 67 or so seconds. 'Don't go shooting all us dogs just because many of us have fleas!'
IMO the Cooper KD was much more significant than the 15th round Frazier drop in the FOTC. Both of those men were exhausted at the time.
Again, IMO, Henry epitomizes everything that is good about boxing.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see many Cooper 'nut-huggers' here at ESB. I see many more Bugner fanatics, a fighter who I initially loved but showed that he had no real ''left-tit'' meddle and lost every major bout that was thrown in his lap.
Folley did dispatch Henry in the rematch in 1960 fairly quickly but I've seen about half of their 58 scrap and I think Henry copped a close decision there, coming on in the late rounds. That victory alone trumps anything the underachieving Bugner ever did.
And let's not forget Sir Henry inviting Ali over to England a few years ago for a final tribute to his opponent/friend.
OK, you want me to criticize Cooper? He should have come state-side for some fights (he always mentioned the huge taxes and expenses in making the trip but other Euro guys came over) Would have liked to have seen him in the 8-man 67' elimination tourney; the Patterson bout in 9/66 probably eliminated him from consideration.
Bottom line?
Henry is beyond reproach.
Simply a great example of boxing the way it (should always) be.

Very well said. Cooper was a genuine contender who paid is dues.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by choklab

Cooper was offered £10,000 to fight chuvalo in toronto at a time when he was getting £50,000 per fight in London so fighting chuvalo was a no brainer since chuvalo was never rated any higher in thw world rankings than cooper anyway.

Henry would have dealt with chuvalo quite easily, he prefered to fight bigger slower fighters.

In 1959 ingo beat machen, cooper beat folley and London beat pastrano. Liston and Patterson were the best around but during this period the euro heavyweights were as good as any other american contenders during this Patterson era.

Jim Wicks is on record as saying he would not put Cooper in with Chuvalo ,whom he could have fought in London.

I doubt Cooper was receiving £50,000 for fights He got $50,000 for his title challenge against Ali that would have been his best purse. Ali himself only got £100,000.


As Euro Champ he was on around £20,000 a major title defence,at the time of the Mildenberger fight, Cooper was getting around £10,000 a fight.
I feel you are" over- egging the pudding " ,here with regard to Cooper's wins.
Wipperman had lost his last 2 fights when he faced Cooper.
Ellis ,whom you describe as prime, was just about to come out of the LHvy division when he fought Hilton, who had lost his previous fight when he fought Cooper.
.Miteff had Cooper down and almost out in the 10,and last round of their fight.

Neuhaus did not beat Layne he drew with a very faded Layne,who had won just 2 of his last7 fights ,and those over no bodies.

Bucceroni had been kod by Tommy Jackson in his previous fight when he fought Neuhaus.

Neuhaus was never top class he was stopped by.
Ingo
Cavichii
Parker
Zech
Kalfbell,
Westphal, best known for making a quick snack for Sonny Liston.
Let's retain our objectivity here.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by choklab

Lennox Lewis was an ATG so yes, he was too much for cooper. The others? No way. Mere belt holders one and all. Cooper was a seasoned fighter who could win competitive fights, box 15 strong rounds, was a fast, genuine world class box puncher who (had there been more titles around in his era) would have been a belt holder just like Haye, Akinwande and co. Henry was 6’2’’ 195lb without PED’s but trained lower for speed as was the trend at that time. On his day, without getting cut he would be a tough fight for any fighter and a lot better than many second string champions.

Cooper was 6'1.5", his best weight was around 188/9 lbs as he said himself .

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

I'd definately have Cooper ahead of Bugner - Bugner could barely beat the shadow of Cooper - the 63 version of Cooper would, I think, give Bugner quite a pasting actually - I probably put Cooper on about a par with probably Frank Bruno - possibly a shade better - I personally rate Farr very very highly amongst heavyweights from these shores

Cooper was on the slide, but Bugner was only a couple of days past his 21st birthday, lets be even-handed .

[kenmore]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Cooper was on the slide, but Bugner was only a couple of days past his 21st birthday, lets be even-handed .

Well said. I also agree with your other posts in this thread.