Sonny Liston in the following fantasy h2h matchups

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by choklab

"Sarasota journal August 12th 1953

Charles weighing the heaviest of his career 191 started out fast but after the third round Valdes took charge and never let up. Valdes weighed 209.
Charles apparently intended to make short work of the Cuban. He jolted Valdes with a right to the chin in the second round but in the third the Cuban walked Charles right across the ring and nailed him as he tried to move away. Late in the fight Charles swung long lefts and rights in a desperate attempt to land a knockout punch but Valdes kept pressing taking and giving in return."
　
Edmonton journal August 12th 1953

He continued to wade in on the ex heavyweight champion shooting for the body and shifting his attack to the head with short lefts and rights.

Kentucky New Era August 12th 1953

Valdes came from behind to out slug Charles in a fight that was fast all the way. Charles who before the fight was number one rated challenger said Valdes never hurt him. “He was a strong fighter and a good mauler but he never hurt me” said the ex champion."

Cannot find any quotes about ninos jabs.

Thank god for those who take the time to back up their opinions

Much more telling than a few isloated quotes about "jabs"

I don't doubt Valdez landed some jabs, but that's pretty much the same stuff I've read regarding the fight. I also recall reading articles regarding Valdez being allowed to physically pick up Charles and carry him to the ropes at points.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

Thank god for those who take the time to back up their opinions

Much more telling than a few isloated quotes about "jabs"

I don't doubt Valdez landed some jabs, but that's pretty much the same stuff I've read regarding the fight. I also recall reading articles regarding Valdez being allowed to physically pick up Charles and carry him to the ropes at points.

Indeed, I will take ezzard's own words over anyone else. Charles was not quoted as saying "just couldn’t get past those Nino jabs" did he? Instead he called Valdes "a strong fighter and a good mauler". There was no jabbing master class going on - I would bet on that. Valdes never put on a display of clever jabbing in any of the film I have of him against Moore, machen, Baker, Jackson, Satterfeild and Brian London so why against Charles? To say Valdes jabbed his way to a win is purely to suit a phoney Liston agenda. Yes Valdes was a big heavyweight with a Liston type reach…but he used to swamp and maul smaller men. A long armed slugger. Valdes was no box-puncher.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Thank god for those who take the time to back up their opinions

check post #15

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by choklab

Indeed, I will take ezzard's own words over anyone else. Charles was not quoted as saying "just couldn’t get past those Nino jabs" did he? Instead he called Valdes "a strong fighter and a good mauler". There was no jabbing master class going on - I would bet on that. Valdes never put on a display of clever jabbing in any of the film I have of him against Moore, machen, Baker, Jackson, Satterfeild and Brian London so why against Charles? To say Valdes jabbed his way to a win is purely to suit a phoney Liston agenda. Yes Valdes was a big heavyweight with a Liston type reach…but he used to swamp and maul smaller men. A long armed slugger. Valdes was no box-puncher.

Yeah, he kind of struck me more as big brawling Bowe type. Had a good uppercut on film.

[SuzieQ49]

Ezzard Charles in a sit down radio interview in the late 1950s and claimed "I couldn't get away from Valdes' Jab". My source is a good friend of Ezzard Charles who posts under here as "albinored", doesn't wish me to give his name

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Thank god for those who take the time to back up their opinions

Mr McGrain has a history of producing the goods to confirm the accuracy of his opinions. If only all posters did.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Ezzard Charles in a sit down radio interview in the late 1950s and claimed "I couldn't get away from Valdes' Jab". My source is a good friend of Ezzard Charles who posts under here as "albinored", doesn't wish me to give his name

If that’s true, fine. That would be both interesting and uncharacteristic of Valdes not to mention the opposite of what Charles said in the ring after the fight.
I also remember you saying you had laMotta vs billy fox on film....

[choklab]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Mr McGrain has a history of producing the goods to confirm the accuracy of his opinions. If only all posters did.

I dont doubt this. I also found detailed reports to back up what I said. Re post #15

[The Mongoose]

Originally Posted by choklab

I dont doubt this. I also found detailed reports to back up what I said. Re post #15

Yeah, this is kind of silly.

I think some people on here owe choklab an apology.

Not sure why McVey would ignore the fact you sourced your comments as well.

[Legend X]

It probably goes to show that it is not possible to know how much a fighter relied on his jab in any particular fight by reading newspaper reports.

People have different interpretations.
I might figure the use of the jab to big more of a factor than the guy sitting next to me watching the same fight. He might say it was the in-fighting that swung it.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by choklab

"Cannot find any quotes about ninos jabs.

Yes, the quotes you have provided have an absence of details concerning jabs. It would be possible to produce a couple of passages about the FOTC that describe Joe Frazier's offence without mentioning his hook.

That Valdes jabbed was the opinion of a smattering of ringsiders. Whether we did or not we won't know unless someone produces the film. But saying that he definitively did not use his jab as a major part of the winning strategy in the light of the two snatches I recreated is most definitely a reach.

And i'm stunned that you "can't find" these references. I just googled (though I knew they were there having done so before).

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

Much more telling than a few isloated quotes about "jabs.

A few isolated quotes about jabs indicate that Valdes may have used his jab, which was the entire point. Of the isolated quotes about the jabs.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by The Mongoose

Yeah, this is kind of silly.

I think some people on here owe choklab an apology.

Not sure why McVey would ignore the fact you sourced your comments as well.

He was paying me a compliment. It doesn't imply criticism of anyone else. There's no need to be so so sensitive (especially not on someone elses behalf).

[Legend X]

I'm not 100% convinced that Sonny Liston was even much better than the 1950 Joe Louis.

I'd expect even that version of Joe Louis to beat everyone Liston beat, and in most cases almost as impressively.

Sacrilege perhaps in the company of Liston-ites. But that's my honest feelings.

[McGrain]

I could see old Louis struggling more than a bit with Patterson's speed. It's also very possible that Patterson would be the puncher in that fight.