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Old 07-26-2012, 11:26 AM   #1
Asterion
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Default Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaires?

Innocent until proven guilty?

Should Sonny Liston's mafia connections affect his heavyweight ranking? Is there any prove that some of his fights were fixed?

Should Holyfield's "Evan Fields" incident with steroids affect his ranking?
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

No for both. Their careers would have panned out the same in most likelihood.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:43 AM   #3
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

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Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
No for both. Their careers would have panned out the same in most likelihood.
So you're saying steroid abuse wouldn't have affected Holyfields career in any way? If thats the case then surely they shouldn't be banned ?
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:58 AM   #4
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

Holyfield used steroids to keep his weight up I am assuming. Naturally, he was a light heavyweight. I would always put Holyfield even with steroids at a disadvantage even with steroids because he is going up against true natural heavyweights.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:16 PM   #5
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

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So you're saying steroid abuse wouldn't have affected Holyfields career in any way? If thats the case then surely they shouldn't be banned ?
Of course steroids should be banned and any sportsman should get a hefty punishment for using them. I was merely stating that I don't reckon Holyfield's career would have developed much differently.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

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Originally Posted by UncleDenny View Post
Holyfield used steroids to keep his weight up I am assuming. Naturally, he was a light heavyweight. I would always put Holyfield even with steroids at a disadvantage even with steroids because he is going up against true natural heavyweights.
What if Foreman had used steriods?

Wonder why tests on Holyfield never picked up the 'roids.....even though just looking at him you knew he was "juiced".

That is boxing.....crooked to the core.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

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Originally Posted by Longhhorn71 View Post
What if Foreman had used steriods?

Wonder why tests on Holyfield never picked up the 'roids.....even though just looking at him you knew he was "juiced".

That is boxing.....crooked to the core.
How do you know Foreman didn't use them? Hell, one of his opponents in the 70's admitted using them. They were out there already. Just because he's fat doesn't mean he didn't use them; James Toney used them as well.

For this reason I don't really rate Holyfield lower. We don't know who else used them but didn't get caught.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

Impossible to say how things would've turned out, but it shouldn't be forgotten.

As for Liston, I have a very hard time thinking the mafia would control a guy only to have an influence when he loses. That's not good business for them when they could make more money with a lower risk on the investment by playing both sides. Sonny being a natural intimidator who actually was good and could punch would've made him the perfect front.

For Holyfield, him not being on PED's would've adversely affected his durability because the added muscle helped him hold up to the larger HW's (many of whom were on something themselves) better. Decreased recovery time is also a side effect, so not having them could've slowed down his exceptional training camps and work ethic.

It's impossible to know how big of an impact either thing had on their respective careers...best to enjoy their work on face value since they were both exceptional fighters, because from what I know, boxing is like politics and sausage: you really don't want to know about what goes in to it.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

Nope. The mob were in on Sonny purely for a cut of his earnings - surely they didn't need to "fix" any of Liston's fights. He was winning them easy enough. He was a hot prospect and unfortunately for Sonny, they saw the potential and got to him before a legit manager could.

Way too underrated as it is, don't push him down any more! Top 5 heavyweight imo, not many could have beaten Liston at his best
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

Loads of fighters were rumoured to have mafia/mobster connections - eg. Joe Louis, Jimmy Braddock, Rocky Marciano, Jake LaMotta and dozens of other champions.


Loads of heavyweight fighters in recent decades used steroids.

So, no, we shouldn't single out certain fighters simply because people
gossipped and labelled them more than the other 'culprits'.
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

Early blow outs, uncompetitive fights, should never count anyway. You cannot fake a competitive fight. Liston was a great fighter with many early wins bit so was Joe Louis and Tyson. We should measure all champions only against the men who could give them a fight rather than those who could not get going against them.

Evander vs. roids? It leaves a bad taste. The roids did not give him technique. He was able to compete because he had technique not just because he simply had roids in his system. I think what ever he did also cost evander anyway. It may have evened itself out. He damn near lost all his hair and had a supposed "heart attack" during Holyfeilds fight with Moorer and had some kind of seizure whilst he had Bowe on the brink of a KO. he lost two key fights he could/should have won.

Last edited by choklab; 07-26-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

I dont know about Liston but definately they should count against Holyfield. If you had been around bodybuilding in the late 80s and early 90s and paid attention to how Holyfield was training and with who who knew his sudden weight gain amazing physique werent natural.

Then all of a sudden he has heart problems and an almost over night hair loss that seemed to coincide with stamina issues. It doesnt take a genius to see he had a scare, cycled off, and suddenly his performance level wasnt very good.

Holyfield gets a lot of love for his heart but that shouldnt cause people to forget that he was a guy who was always looking for an edge whether it be by elbows, headbutts, and low blows, or by steroids.

As an amateur he had an athletic but natural looking build and was known for having pretty weak endurance.

In the pros in only his twelfth fight he goes fifteen of the hardest rounds ever with Dwight Qawi and looked ripped doing it.

At that point he had already gained 10 pounds of muscle. Thats not a huge deal over the year and a half hed a pro but he was already in his twenties and continued to grow and grow and grow without adding any fat whatsoever.

In boxing you run several miles a day, box several rounds a day, jump rope, shadow box, bag work etc. Its extremely intensive cardio wise. Ask any bodybuilder how hard it is to put on significant weight with just a little cardio much less hours a day of it. Yet somehow a guy who was no longer growing is able to add twenty five pounds of solid, fat free, ripped muscle in less than two years between Qawi and Stewart while working hours each day at cardio. Mama didnt raise no dummies I know when I see something like that its not natural.

Does anyone really think Holy could have competed with Bowe, Tyson, Lewis, and all those others weighing 185, or a naturally bloated 215? If you dont, or if you think his performances wouldnt have been as good then you have to hold steroids against him.

Unless you really believe he was buying steroids for his uncle...
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71 View Post
What if Foreman had used steriods?

Wonder why tests on Holyfield never picked up the 'roids.....even though just looking at him you knew he was "juiced".

That is boxing.....crooked to the core.

What tests? Most places werent testing for roids until very recently.
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:37 PM   #14
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

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Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
No for both. Their careers would have panned out the same in most likelihood.
Although your sort of wrong, your right in a different way. He reason evander looked immaculate was more down to the fact that he constantly worked hard in the gym every day and was dedicated to boxing. Did he take steroids, we don't know, but one things for sure; if he did, it ain't gonna do shit unless your willing to train every day.

If he did take roids, would it have really been that much different if he hadn't? Maybe the odd loss here and there unless he genuinely was on PED's from the start of his career.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: Should Liston's & Holyfield's rankings be affected by their mafia/steroid affaire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
I dont know about Liston but definately they should count against Holyfield. If you had been around bodybuilding in the late 80s and early 90s and paid attention to how Holyfield was training and with who who knew his sudden weight gain amazing physique werent natural.

Then all of a sudden he has heart problems and an almost over night hair loss that seemed to coincide with stamina issues. It doesnt take a genius to see he had a scare, cycled off, and suddenly his performance level wasnt very good.

Holyfield gets a lot of love for his heart but that shouldnt cause people to forget that he was a guy who was always looking for an edge whether it be by elbows, headbutts, and low blows, or by steroids.

As an amateur he had an athletic but natural looking build and was known for having pretty weak endurance.

In the pros in only his twelfth fight he goes fifteen of the hardest rounds ever with Dwight Qawi and looked ripped doing it.

At that point he had already gained 10 pounds of muscle. Thats not a huge deal over the year and a half hed a pro but he was already in his twenties and continued to grow and grow and grow without adding any fat whatsoever.

In boxing you run several miles a day, box several rounds a day, jump rope, shadow box, bag work etc. Its extremely intensive cardio wise. Ask any bodybuilder how hard it is to put on significant weight with just a little cardio much less hours a day of it. Yet somehow a guy who was no longer growing is able to add twenty five pounds of solid, fat free, ripped muscle in less than two years between Qawi and Stewart while working hours each day at cardio. Mama didnt raise no dummies I know when I see something like that its not natural.

Does anyone really think Holy could have competed with Bowe, Tyson, Lewis, and all those others weighing 185, or a naturally bloated 215? If you dont, or if you think his performances wouldnt have been as good then you have to hold steroids against him.

Unless you really believe he was buying steroids for his uncle...

A damn good post. the truth.
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