Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

KuRuPT · 07-30-2012, 07:22 PM

who faced and beat the better competition during their era..

Vic-JofreBRASIL · 07-30-2012, 08:29 PM

Johnson.
I don´t see this as a close comparison tbh.....Jack´s opposition pre-title was pretty tough !

the cobra · 07-30-2012, 09:19 PM

Liston's wins over Patterson are better than anything Jack has, but on the whole, I'm with Vic on this. It's Johnson.

Seamus · 07-30-2012, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL

Johnson.
I don´t see this as a close comparison tbh.....Jack´s opposition pre-title was pretty tough !

The best of those weren't either heavyweights or in any way seasoned.

Liston by a country mile.

Vic-JofreBRASIL · 07-30-2012, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus

The best of those weren't either heavyweights or in any way seasoned.

Liston by a country mile.

Well..Generally, Liston was also always with a big size advantage in his fights.....
Folley, Machen, Patterson...they were that big ?

I don´t rate Johnson too high like many, because IMO his title defenses were poor, but Liston didn´t have even that....He beat a smaller Patterson with all the style advantages on his favor and then lost soundly against Ali...that´s it.

If you wanna make a case to Machen, Folley or Williams as greater HWs than Jeanette, McVey or even that version of Langford....then it´s okay with me, but I wouldn´t feel confortable with it...

Seamus · 07-30-2012, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL

Well..Generally, Liston was also always with a big size advantage in his fights.....
Folley, Machen, Patterson...they were that big ?

I don´t rate Johnson too high like many, because IMO his title defenses were poor, but Liston didn´t have even that....He beat a smaller Patterson with all the style advantages on his favor and then lost soundly against Ali...that´s it.

If you wanna make a case to Machen, Folley or Williams as greater HWs than Jeanette, McVey or even that version of Langford....then it´s okay with me, but I wouldn´t feel confortable with it...

I would make the case that Machen, Folley and Williams were far greater and more accomplished heavyweights when Liston fought them than the 156 pound Langford, the 0-1 Jeanette, or the 19 year old McVea that Johnson fought.

And I would be right because it is not even close.

Asterion · 07-30-2012, 10:55 PM

Liston.

Asterion · 07-30-2012, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus

I would make the case that Machen, Folley and Williams were far greater and more accomplished heavyweights when Liston fought them than the 156 pound Langford, the 0-1 Jeanette, or the 19 year old McVea that Johnson fought.

And I would be right because it is not even close.

Exactly.

Johnson is extremely overrated.

PetethePrince · 07-31-2012, 12:16 AM

Johnson. If Johnson ever quit at least he did when he was an old man.

I can see the arguments for Liston. And honestly upon more examination it's fine. The thing is, Johnson has a lot of names although it they were timely names. I don't know how exactly that should be valued but he beat great fighters when they were green (Or green fighters that turned out to be great. Depends on how you view it). Besides those green names of Langford, Jeannete, Mcvey, and the older names of smaller Fitzsimmons and Young Peter Jackson. Johnson also has Jeffries, Ketchel, Flynn, and Moran. Those aren't half bad title defenses. Either way, I only have Johnson 2 spots ahead so it's not clear either way.

The problem with Liston is he basically was the quickest to go from hero to zero with the exception of Foreman, who later found historical redemption (I mean hero figuratively. Liston was never a hero). In some ways he'll never lose that bully smudge that's forever stained his legacy. Liston was great, no doubt. But he never dealt with a serious, grueling challenge. When he faced the toughest task he folded like a sack of potatoes (No disrespect to potatoes). I don't see how his fans reconcile this. They sort of justify that Ali is the GOAT HW but we're talking about an 22 year old Ali. More importantly, it's not Ali but how Liston responded to Ali that's troubling. His record is pretty good. Not great, though. He doesn't have the kind of title defenses or longevity other HW champs have like Louis or Tyson. He also doesn't have the bigger legacy name wins that champs like Frazier, Foreman, and Holyfield have.

Johnson #9, Liston #11.

Seamus · 07-31-2012, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Besides those green names of Langford, Jeannete, Mcvey, and the older names of smaller Fitzsimmons and Young Peter Jackson. Johnson also has Jeffries, Ketchel, Flynn, and Moran. Those aren't half bad title defenses. Either way, I only have Johnson 2 spots ahead so it's not clear either way.

This just has me shaking my head.

The Jeffries that Johnson fought was horrible, not bad, not ill-trained, but deficient in every manner to engage in heavyweight boxing. Ketchell was a syphlitic, hophead drunk middleweight in a staged fight, not a lot credit given there, sorry. Moran had been beaten half a dozen times before meeting Johnson, including being finished by a Who's Who of Nobodies.

The lengths some will go to bolster Johnson's record of excellence offends even my not-so-delicate sensibilities.

frankenfrank · 07-31-2012, 03:32 AM

Liston : Patterson*2 , Folley , Machen , Cleveland Williams*2
Johnson : Jeannette , ? , ? , ?

Liston also fought Summerlin and Marshall whom both gave him trouble 5 times combined , instead of avoiding them , but then who knows if their fights were 4eal ?
Folley , Machen and even Cleveland Williams were fighters that 4mer "champion"
Floyd Patterson was strongly protected from .

In Johnson's case ,
it certainly must not b : Langford , Thompkins , Ketchell , old Jeffries , old Fitzsimmons , can it ?

initially i thought it meant Ingemar , which would have 2rned it 2 a "no brainer"

KuRuPT · 07-31-2012, 11:27 AM

Am I understanding this correctly...

Patterson.. Folley.. Machen, Williams and Marshall... were better regarded in their time than Langford, McVea, Joe J, Burns, Ketchell, Jeffries, Jackson and O'Brien.. In THEIR TIME not with Seamus colored glasses that only regard modern boxers as counting.. This must be a joke.

MrBumboclart · 07-31-2012, 11:32 AM

LISTON! He beat all there was to offer....before he won the title, which he won in under 3min and did the same in the rematch.

Johnson had a semi-impressive run to the title, having been knocked out by Choyshinski and lost a few decisions before winning. Then sitting on the title his defenses weren't overly impressive - an old Jeffries - a middleweight Ketchel - Fireman Jim Flynn? Who Langford KO'd in 1 - which leads to Langford - a black challenger than Johnson ducked.

Liston by far.

frankenfrank · 07-31-2012, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

Am I understanding this correctly...

Patterson.. Folley.. Machen, Williams and Marshall... were better regarded in their time than Langford, McVea, Joe J, Burns, Ketchell, Jeffries, Jackson and O'Brien.. In THEIR TIME not with Seamus colored glasses that only regard modern boxers as counting.. This must be a joke.

In THEIR TIME Langford and Ketchell were middleweights , Jeffries was old and post retirement and layoff , Joe J I counted , Jackson (like Thompkins ?) was less than a full fledged middleweight and d rest were either old , small , some other handicap or probably a combination of more than 1 handicap come fight time .

Your post show how clueless u r .
As usual .

Stevie G · 07-31-2012, 11:38 AM

Liston's resume was better. He fought some good contenders. As has been pointed out,Johnson's lot were pretty flawed in one way or another. He never beat anyone as good as Floyd Patterson.

This is in no way meant as any detriment to Johnson. He was a great and ahead of his time.

07-30-2012, 07:22 PM	#1
KuRuPT Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,628 vCash: 500	Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson who faced and beat the better competition during their era..
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07-30-2012, 08:29 PM	#2
Vic-JofreBRASIL Vic East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Santos Posts: 8,653 vCash: 1166	Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson Johnson. I don´t see this as a close comparison tbh.....Jack´s opposition pre-title was pretty tough !
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07-30-2012, 09:19 PM	#3
the cobra Awesomeizationism! East Side Guru Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,914 vCash: 1000	Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson Liston's wins over Patterson are better than anything Jack has, but on the whole, I'm with Vic on this. It's Johnson.
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07-30-2012, 10:55 PM	#7
Asterion Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 5,870 vCash: 75	Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson Liston.
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07-31-2012, 12:16 AM	#9
PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded East Side VIP Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 14,393 vCash: 1200	Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson Johnson. If Johnson ever quit at least he did when he was an old man. I can see the arguments for Liston. And honestly upon more examination it's fine. The thing is, Johnson has a lot of names although it they were timely names. I don't know how exactly that should be valued but he beat great fighters when they were green (Or green fighters that turned out to be great. Depends on how you view it). Besides those green names of Langford, Jeannete, Mcvey, and the older names of smaller Fitzsimmons and Young Peter Jackson. Johnson also has Jeffries, Ketchel, Flynn, and Moran. Those aren't half bad title defenses. Either way, I only have Johnson 2 spots ahead so it's not clear either way. The problem with Liston is he basically was the quickest to go from hero to zero with the exception of Foreman, who later found historical redemption (I mean hero figuratively. Liston was never a hero). In some ways he'll never lose that bully smudge that's forever stained his legacy. Liston was great, no doubt. But he never dealt with a serious, grueling challenge. When he faced the toughest task he folded like a sack of potatoes (No disrespect to potatoes). I don't see how his fans reconcile this. They sort of justify that Ali is the GOAT HW but we're talking about an 22 year old Ali. More importantly, it's not Ali but how Liston responded to Ali that's troubling. His record is pretty good. Not great, though. He doesn't have the kind of title defenses or longevity other HW champs have like Louis or Tyson. He also doesn't have the bigger legacy name wins that champs like Frazier, Foreman, and Holyfield have. Johnson #9, Liston #11.
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07-31-2012, 03:32 AM	#11
frankenfrank Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 6,023 vCash: 3740	Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson Liston : Patterson2 , Folley , Machen , Cleveland Williams2 Johnson : Jeannette , ? , ? , ? Liston also fought Summerlin and Marshall whom both gave him trouble 5 times combined , instead of avoiding them , but then who knows if their fights were 4eal ? Folley , Machen and even Cleveland Williams were fighters that 4mer "champion" Floyd Patterson was strongly protected from . In Johnson's case , it certainly must not b : Langford , Thompkins , Ketchell , old Jeffries , old Fitzsimmons , can it ? initially i thought it meant Ingemar , which would have 2rned it 2 a "no brainer"
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07-31-2012, 11:27 AM	#12
KuRuPT Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,628 vCash: 500	Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson Am I understanding this correctly... Patterson.. Folley.. Machen, Williams and Marshall... were better regarded in their time than Langford, McVea, Joe J, Burns, Ketchell, Jeffries, Jackson and O'Brien.. In THEIR TIME not with Seamus colored glasses that only regard modern boxers as counting.. This must be a joke.
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07-31-2012, 11:32 AM	#13
MrBumboclart Gatekeeper ESB Full Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Birmingham Posts: 329 vCash: 500	Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson LISTON! He beat all there was to offer....before he won the title, which he won in under 3min and did the same in the rematch. Johnson had a semi-impressive run to the title, having been knocked out by Choyshinski and lost a few decisions before winning. Then sitting on the title his defenses weren't overly impressive - an old Jeffries - a middleweight Ketchel - Fireman Jim Flynn? Who Langford KO'd in 1 - which leads to Langford - a black challenger than Johnson ducked. Liston by far.
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07-31-2012, 11:38 AM	#15
Stevie G Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: London,England Posts: 8,394 vCash: 1000	Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson Liston's resume was better. He fought some good contenders. As has been pointed out,Johnson's lot were pretty flawed in one way or another. He never beat anyone as good as Floyd Patterson. This is in no way meant as any detriment to Johnson. He was a great and ahead of his time.
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