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Old 07-30-2012, 07:22 PM   #1
KuRuPT
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Default Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

who faced and beat the better competition during their era..
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

Johnson.
I donīt see this as a close comparison tbh.....Jackīs opposition pre-title was pretty tough !
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

Liston's wins over Patterson are better than anything Jack has, but on the whole, I'm with Vic on this. It's Johnson.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:25 PM   #4
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

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Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL View Post
Johnson.
I donīt see this as a close comparison tbh.....Jackīs opposition pre-title was pretty tough !
The best of those weren't either heavyweights or in any way seasoned.

Liston by a country mile.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

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The best of those weren't either heavyweights or in any way seasoned.

Liston by a country mile.
Well..Generally, Liston was also always with a big size advantage in his fights.....
Folley, Machen, Patterson...they were that big ?

I donīt rate Johnson too high like many, because IMO his title defenses were poor, but Liston didnīt have even that....He beat a smaller Patterson with all the style advantages on his favor and then lost soundly against Ali...thatīs it.

If you wanna make a case to Machen, Folley or Williams as greater HWs than Jeanette, McVey or even that version of Langford....then itīs okay with me, but I wouldnīt feel confortable with it...
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

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Well..Generally, Liston was also always with a big size advantage in his fights.....
Folley, Machen, Patterson...they were that big ?

I donīt rate Johnson too high like many, because IMO his title defenses were poor, but Liston didnīt have even that....He beat a smaller Patterson with all the style advantages on his favor and then lost soundly against Ali...thatīs it.

If you wanna make a case to Machen, Folley or Williams as greater HWs than Jeanette, McVey or even that version of Langford....then itīs okay with me, but I wouldnīt feel confortable with it...
I would make the case that Machen, Folley and Williams were far greater and more accomplished heavyweights when Liston fought them than the 156 pound Langford, the 0-1 Jeanette, or the 19 year old McVea that Johnson fought.

And I would be right because it is not even close.
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:55 PM   #7
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

Liston.
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:56 PM   #8
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

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I would make the case that Machen, Folley and Williams were far greater and more accomplished heavyweights when Liston fought them than the 156 pound Langford, the 0-1 Jeanette, or the 19 year old McVea that Johnson fought.

And I would be right because it is not even close.
Exactly.

Johnson is extremely overrated.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:16 AM   #9
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

Johnson. If Johnson ever quit at least he did when he was an old man.

I can see the arguments for Liston. And honestly upon more examination it's fine. The thing is, Johnson has a lot of names although it they were timely names. I don't know how exactly that should be valued but he beat great fighters when they were green (Or green fighters that turned out to be great. Depends on how you view it). Besides those green names of Langford, Jeannete, Mcvey, and the older names of smaller Fitzsimmons and Young Peter Jackson. Johnson also has Jeffries, Ketchel, Flynn, and Moran. Those aren't half bad title defenses. Either way, I only have Johnson 2 spots ahead so it's not clear either way.

The problem with Liston is he basically was the quickest to go from hero to zero with the exception of Foreman, who later found historical redemption (I mean hero figuratively. Liston was never a hero). In some ways he'll never lose that bully smudge that's forever stained his legacy. Liston was great, no doubt. But he never dealt with a serious, grueling challenge. When he faced the toughest task he folded like a sack of potatoes (No disrespect to potatoes). I don't see how his fans reconcile this. They sort of justify that Ali is the GOAT HW but we're talking about an 22 year old Ali. More importantly, it's not Ali but how Liston responded to Ali that's troubling. His record is pretty good. Not great, though. He doesn't have the kind of title defenses or longevity other HW champs have like Louis or Tyson. He also doesn't have the bigger legacy name wins that champs like Frazier, Foreman, and Holyfield have.

Johnson #9, Liston #11.
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:24 AM   #10
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

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Besides those green names of Langford, Jeannete, Mcvey, and the older names of smaller Fitzsimmons and Young Peter Jackson. Johnson also has Jeffries, Ketchel, Flynn, and Moran. Those aren't half bad title defenses. Either way, I only have Johnson 2 spots ahead so it's not clear either way.
This just has me shaking my head.

The Jeffries that Johnson fought was horrible, not bad, not ill-trained, but deficient in every manner to engage in heavyweight boxing. Ketchell was a syphlitic, hophead drunk middleweight in a staged fight, not a lot credit given there, sorry. Moran had been beaten half a dozen times before meeting Johnson, including being finished by a Who's Who of Nobodies.

The lengths some will go to bolster Johnson's record of excellence offends even my not-so-delicate sensibilities.
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Old 07-31-2012, 03:32 AM   #11
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

Liston : Patterson*2 , Folley , Machen , Cleveland Williams*2
Johnson : Jeannette , ? , ? , ?

Liston also fought Summerlin and Marshall whom both gave him trouble 5 times combined , instead of avoiding them , but then who knows if their fights were 4eal ?
Folley , Machen and even Cleveland Williams were fighters that 4mer "champion"
Floyd Patterson was strongly protected from .

In Johnson's case ,
it certainly must not b : Langford , Thompkins , Ketchell , old Jeffries , old Fitzsimmons , can it ?


initially i thought it meant Ingemar , which would have 2rned it 2 a "no brainer"
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:27 AM   #12
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

Am I understanding this correctly...

Patterson.. Folley.. Machen, Williams and Marshall... were better regarded in their time than Langford, McVea, Joe J, Burns, Ketchell, Jeffries, Jackson and O'Brien.. In THEIR TIME not with Seamus colored glasses that only regard modern boxers as counting.. This must be a joke.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:32 AM   #13
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

LISTON! He beat all there was to offer....before he won the title, which he won in under 3min and did the same in the rematch.

Johnson had a semi-impressive run to the title, having been knocked out by Choyshinski and lost a few decisions before winning. Then sitting on the title his defenses weren't overly impressive - an old Jeffries - a middleweight Ketchel - Fireman Jim Flynn? Who Langford KO'd in 1 - which leads to Langford - a black challenger than Johnson ducked.

Liston by far.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:35 AM   #14
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

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Originally Posted by KuRuPT View Post
Am I understanding this correctly...

Patterson.. Folley.. Machen, Williams and Marshall... were better regarded in their time than Langford, McVea, Joe J, Burns, Ketchell, Jeffries, Jackson and O'Brien.. In THEIR TIME not with Seamus colored glasses that only regard modern boxers as counting.. This must be a joke.
In THEIR TIME Langford and Ketchell were middleweights , Jeffries was old and post retirement and layoff , Joe J I counted , Jackson (like Thompkins ?) was less than a full fledged middleweight and d rest were either old , small , some other handicap or probably a combination of more than 1 handicap come fight time .



Your post show how clueless u r .
As usual .
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:38 AM   #15
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Default Re: Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

Liston's resume was better. He fought some good contenders. As has been pointed out,Johnson's lot were pretty flawed in one way or another. He never beat anyone as good as Floyd Patterson.


This is in no way meant as any detriment to Johnson. He was a great and ahead of his time.
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