Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Chris, Langford scaled 156lbs for Johnson ,if we take his best weight as around 175/180lbs,that is 20/24 lbs below his best weight.

Johnson scaled 189lbs,Johnson said he was in the shape of his life for the Jeffries fight, he scaled 208lbs for that so 19lbs below his optimum weight.


Factor in that Langford was the more experienced fighter,with over 50 fights under his belt.


Harry Wills gets a ton of credit for beating a porky, 39 years old Langford, yet Johnson is castigated for beating a younger version.


When Johnson absolutely dominated McVey, before koing him in the last round, McVey had allready stopped names like Kid Carter,Fred Russell and Denver Ed Martin..

McVey was no middle either ,he scaled 207 to Johnson's 190lbs


Jeannette was 26 when he first fought Johnson and ,27 for their last encounter.I think it's safe to assume he had pubic hair.

Jeffries was past it , but whose fault was it they did not meet in their primes?

Just to add to this. When Johnson lost to one of the worst HW champs ever it was against 240lb HW over a grueling 45 round contest in the beating sun. Not to mention Johnson was 37 years old. In the 1900's 37 year old was ancient in boxing terms. Not even with some bad arithmetic and exaggerated guesswork was Liston 37 years old by the time of the first Ali fight.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Good



You could say that. I would actually argue that Jeffries probably was more ill-trained than deficient in a shot and shouldn't be licensed due to brain-damage ala old Ali or Holyfield kind of way. I wouldn't be surprised if that Jeffries was capable of beating at least some of the other "ranked" HWs of that day. Maybe that's too much credit. I do think he dropped far too much weight, too fast by the sounds of it. That definitely affected his performance.




Is the Ketchel fight being staged really determined as a consensus nowadays. I always thought that was myth. Was Ketchel drunk when he landed that right hand? How badly was the syphlis at that time... he had just beaten Papke for the MW title 3 months earlier.



Losses were far more prevalent in those days for obvious reasons. While I won't bolster the credentials of Moran as he's not some great fighter. I'm not trying to make him out to be anyway. I think your standards may be a little exceptional for the time period. This is exactly why you listed Jeffries, Johnson, and Dempsey are the three most overrated fighters (Unless you were joking).



Uh huh. Do you rank any pre 50's HW in the top 10 besides Joe Louis then? Times were different. Johnson's record is fallible but more respectable than you're giving credit for. I don't even have to me what all the sports writers and historians thought of his ability and skills during his time. I know what you think of his incessant spoiling and showboating.

How deluded must one be to exhort the merits of a staged fight against a hophead middleweight and a has-been amateur heavyweight five years removed from the sport to bolster someone's resume. Is the argument for Johnson's supremacy that desperate? If it is, it is truly embarrassing for those fomenting it.

Carry on, though. These fictions entertain me to no end.

[PetethePrince]

What about the pre 1950's HW questions? Are you standards considering the times a little extreme, or was ducking during those days because of racial lines and various other reasons more excusable, and only under the scrutiny of hindsight are these fighters records that much lesser than more modern HWs (As well as the opinions of the viewers of that time). Phew, that's quite the run on sentence.

My stance would be Luf's logic. That Johnson's whole record is better than the sum of its part. You can shit and discredit each opponent but Johnson beat the best fighters of his day. Of course he didn't beat all of them at their most timely peaks as fighters, but that's not entirely Johnson's fault as the politics probably wouldn't permit. Would whites really be interesting in watching two black HWs compete for the championship? Maybe they would and maybe it would be permitted. It wouldn't sell nearly as well as the white hope theme. Maybe I'm just buying into apologetic bullshit for Johnson. I don't think I am.

[KuRuPT]

I amuses me that Johnson's detractors don't give him the proper credit he deserves for beating McVea, Joe J and Sam L because of x, y and z... X being that he fought them when they weren't prime (even though some had more fights than him).. Y.. because they hadn't filled into their proper body weight (even though his best win was when he weighed even less and Johnson also wasn't at his best weight) and Z.. they plain sucked anyways ( as if Liston resume is full of all time greats from top to bottom... Oo wait it has even less all time greats on it). Point is, this nonsense about detracting from Johnson's resume because he didn't beat certain fighters when "people" think they were prime is illogical. Mainly beause you would first have to prove them being whatever people claim would've made a difference against Johnson, when ya know, Johnson had already crushed them with utter ease the times he did fight them. So now people 100 years later feel they weren't good enough then.. and so that some takes away from the utter thrashing he gave them when they did fight...? Hilarious.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

What about the pre 1950's HW questions? Are you standards considering the times a little extreme, or was ducking during those days because of racial lines and various other reasons more excusable, and only under the scrutiny of hindsight are these fighters records that much lesser than more modern HWs (As well as the opinions of the viewers of that time). Phew, that's quite the run on sentence.

My stance would be Luf's logic. That Johnson's whole record is better than the sum of its part. You can shit and discredit each opponent but Johnson beat the best fighters of his day. Of course he didn't beat all of them at their most timely peaks as fighters, but that's not entirely Johnson's fault as the politics probably wouldn't permit. Would whites really be interesting in watching two black HWs compete for the championship? Maybe they would and maybe it would be permitted. It wouldn't sell nearly as well as the white hope theme. Maybe I'm just buying into apologetic bullshit for Johnson. I don't think I am.

Records are exactly and definitively the sum of their parts. The rest of it is misty-eyed fiction.

[Legend X]

Johnson probably had the better resume.
For a start, Johnson beat Sam Langford, who is rated really highly.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Liston:

Machen
Besmanoff
Valdes
Williams
Bethea

and if you spot him a pound, you can include Folley

Machen was under 200lbs, so that dosn't leave you with verry much.

Williams, you don't rate very highly yourself.

Valdez was old.

Once you have to pull out guys like Bethea and Besmanoff, you are getting towards fringe contender teritory.

Johnson:

Moran
The green as a shoot McVea
The shot, pathetic Jeffries, after 5 years of retirement

I don't think Ed Martin or Sandy Ferguson were 200 against Johnson.

Yeah, why don't you finish the Johnson list... It is a little less than awe-inspiring.

You have already produced a better list than the one that you have been able to come up with for Liston.

McVea was green, but he was viewd as being one of the top two contenders at the time.

A shot Jeffries is a prety good name if you are reduced to trotting out people like Bethea.

Matin and Ferguson were over 200lbs when Johnson fought them

I havn't even mentioned the fact that Johnson beat all these guys multiple times.

I could carry on fleshing the list out further.

Its seems that you are so set in the mentality of fighters from later eras having a size advantage, that you don't even pick up on it when they manifestly and obviously don't.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Records are exactly and definitively the sum of their parts. The rest of it is misty-eyed fiction.

I could tear down Liston's record name by name if you wish but I have a little more respect for such fighters. There's nothing fictitious about the names and opponents that Johnson defeated. You can continuously undermine and diminish each circumstance as you desire but your act is getting tiresome.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

I could tear down Liston's record name by name if you wish but I have a little more respect for such fighters. There's nothing fictitious about the names and opponents that Johnson defeated. You can continuously undermine and diminish each circumstance as you desire but your act is getting tiresome.

I am not tiring of it at all actually.

I am just amazed at the has-beens, middleweights, staged fights, hopheads, amateurs and teenagers being trotted out to support Johnson's record. And now this misty-eyed, atomized holistic approach being used as the ultimate crutch is about the most hilarious thing I have seen on this board which I did not write.

[Legend X]

Tommy Burns was pretty good.

[KuRuPT]

Originally Posted by Seamus

I am not tiring of it at all actually.

I am just amazed at the has-beens, middleweights, staged fights, hopheads, amateurs and teenagers being trotted out to support Johnson's record. And now this misty-eyed, atomized holistic approach being used as the ultimate crutch is about the most hilarious thing I have seen on this board which I did not write.

So Liston's list doesn't stack up then? Fair enough, I agree

[SuzieQ49]

We could compare the six best fighters over 200lbs that Johnson beat to the six best that Liston beat.

The 6 best Liston beat

6'3 215lb Cleveland Williams 2x
6'3 212lb Nino Valdes
6'4 202lb Mike Dejohn
6'3 215lb Henry Clark
6'0 204lb Wayne Bethea

Williams was rated # 10, DeJohn # 7, Bethea # 9, Clark # 7, and Valdes was rated # 2 earlier that year.


On film, some of these guys display tremendous punching power and look much more advanced skill wise than the big men Jack Johnson fought


Who were Johnson's best?

Frank Moran? Terrible. A gooftrooper.
James Jeffries? Coming off a 6 year layoff
Sandy Fergusson?
Sam McVea? Had his balls even dropped yet?
Tony Ross?
Tom Cowler?

[Seamus]

How much credit would we give Wladmir Klitschko is he beat Sergio Martinez? Would it be considered a defining victory in a Hall of Fame career?

If his name was Jack Johnson, it sure would.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Seamus

How much credit would we give Wladmir Klitschko is he beat Sergio Martinez? Would it be considered a defining victory in a Hall of Fame career?

We apparently consider it a defining win of his career when he beat Chris Byrd, a guy who later fought at light heavyweight.

If you are going to beat Johnson with the size stick, then at least have the integrity to use it consistently.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by janitor

We apparently consider it a defining win of his career when he beat Chris Byrd, a guy who later fought at light heavyweight.

If you are going to beat Johnson with the size stick, then at least have the integrity to use it consistently.

Byrd was an established force at heavyweight and weighed in at 213 pounds. Langford had beaten no one yet of note in the heavyweight ranks and weighed in at 156 pounds. Johnson was, for the day, a full fledged heavyweight at 185 pounds, just 9 pounds shy of his dominating performance against Burns.

I am not denigrating Johnson for beating the Langford like a redheaded stepchild. Kudo's for him. However, for me, it is not the shining moment on a great resume when a legit heavyweight takes out a middleweight.