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Old 08-01-2012, 12:13 AM   #1
rekcutnevets
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Default What would Samart Payakaroon do?

What alterations, in regards to stance, would a Muay Thai fighter make competing in mma?

Here is Payakaroon while kickboxing:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inz2dBS8rv0&feature=related[/ame]

Here he is boxing:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wl_CrMWYMo[/ame]


Samart Payakaroon clearly adjusted his stance for the respective sports shown above. Would there be a major adjustment for mma, and if so, what would it be?
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:26 PM   #2
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Default Re: What would Samart Payakaroon do?

Good question rekcutnevets. It’s an interesting one, but I think as far as Samart’s concerned probably a simple one.

A “Thai” Muay Thai fighter tends to fight with most of his body weight on the back foot and be anchored with it pretty heavily. There are many reasons for this, but a few of the obvious ones are: the less weight on the lead leg the less damage it takes when kicked, it’s also harder to be knocked off balance with little weight on it when kicked, it enables you to lift your lead leg quicker to block or counter knee, or use for a counter push or round kick etc etc. Thai’s don’t dance about on their toes, they stand right in front of you stalking and pressuring looking for openings to release single strike power as opposed to the more dynamic but less powerful drilled combos of their dancing in and out Kickboxing cousins.

However, when a “Thai” Muay Thai fighter switches over to western styled boxing they totally reverse the whole weight distribution and almost over compensate onto the front foot with say a 65-35 weight split on to the lead leg. Inconceivable in MT where they’d get the shit kicked out of your front leg or eat far too many knees. As late comers to boxing they make up for lack of “traditional” boxing skills with all-round toughness, years of hard fought ring experience on the MT circuit and tremendous fighting spirit. They tend to feel more comfortable as pressure fighters close to their prey in the pocket similar to MT. Hence so much weight on the lead leg so they can lean in and start to pound. Very similar to what a lot of Mexicans do, just think “El Terrible” when he’s going in for the kill.

Remember I’m generalising a bit and talking in general about Thai converts obviously there are some exceptions, but they tend to be slightly unusual like Samart.

To highlight a little of what I’m talking about here are two clips of the same fighter, Sam-A. He’s a current top 5 MT P4P king and former Lumpinee Stadium champion as well 2011 Thai sportswriters Fighter of the Year.

Here he is (Blue) fighting MT in Lumpinee against another top Thai Kongsak (Red) last year. Watch the weight distribution:


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Emjqb0ZOY"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Emjqb0ZOY[/ame]



Now watch him (White) in his pro boxing debut only last month against a Pinoy. Again notice the weight shift:


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrIw4D71ieQ[/ame]


Now what you’re seeing between the two clips is how 90% of Thai MT fighters adapt when the turn over to Boxing. OK Sam-A still dances away a bit onto the backfoot, but this is only his debut, once they fully changeover it’s all the front foot and forward, forward, forward.

Now back to the question in relation to Samart and MMA. What I treid to do with the above explanation is highlight just how "differenat" Samart was to the average Thai fighter. Samart was no ordinary Thai fighter, he broke the mould massively, and he was very different to most. He wasn’t the one dimensional forward stalking wrecking machine that most Thais are, he preferred fighting at range with punches and kicks and had an uncanny ability to just read everything so well, You’re hard pressed to find a fighter who was just as comfortable and such a pure natural in the ring, he almost looks like he’s gassed he’s so relaxed even against the toughest fighters in the world. Somrak Khamsing is another with that gift whatever the style MT, Boxing …….or dare I say it MMA. For me in the two clips you posted he hasn’t massively changed his style or stance compared to most Thais. Sure he’s more stationary and more on the back foot when he’s fighting MT and yes he’s more on his toes with a more equal weight shift when boxing, but his style is basically the same it’s just practicality that has made him adapt. I think Samart is very unusual in the sense that the difference between the two stances is very small compared to other Thais that fight between styles, the leap from one to the other is very small and I think that would benefit him in an MMA environment.

I think if he moved into the MMA realm (which I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have done unless it was for some kind of giant one off payday super fight), I think he’d basically fight between the two stances with his preference being the MT stance so he could try to keep his opponent at bay. And if things got to close he’d slip into his heavy lead leg to throw his fists. I think it’s as simple as that, he’d just shift between the two. But l think for most Thais that move to MMA they will always always be strikers at heart and never really get to grips with the subtleties of the grappling shooting side of MMA. Yodsannan and Rambaa are examples of even with MMA training you can take the dog out of the fight but you can never take the fight out of the dog.

I don’t know enough about MMA to know if guys pick a stance for a certain style of opposition when they stand up or not so I can’t speak on how he may have adapt to a so called “MMA” stance, but as no one replied and Samart is one of my favourite fighters I thought I had to post. (Long and rambling, late here ).

By the way in that clip you posted of Samart fighting the Jap, he’s just playing, seriously just playing.

Here’s a more “focused” Samart against fellow ATG in Lumpinee Nampon Nongkeeprawayuth:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vwizESGmf4[/ame]
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: What would Samart Payakaroon do?

Nice insight boran

My take is that there is also a subtle shift in stance when it comes to MMA. It probably depends on the situation and fighting style of the fighter. Like in Muay, they should reduce weight in the front leg to reduce damage from kicks, however, for wrestlers who are pushing for takedowns, I believe they should place the weight on the front foot.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: What would Samart Payakaroon do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boranbkk View Post
Good question rekcutnevets. It’s an interesting one, but I think as far as Samart’s concerned probably a simple one.

A “Thai” Muay Thai fighter tends to fight with most of his body weight on the back foot and be anchored with it pretty heavily. There are many reasons for this, but a few of the obvious ones are: the less weight on the lead leg the less damage it takes when kicked, it’s also harder to be knocked off balance with little weight on it when kicked, it enables you to lift your lead leg quicker to block or counter knee, or use for a counter push or round kick etc etc. Thai’s don’t dance about on their toes, they stand right in front of you stalking and pressuring looking for openings to release single strike power as opposed to the more dynamic but less powerful drilled combos of their dancing in and out Kickboxing cousins.

However, when a “Thai” Muay Thai fighter switches over to western styled boxing they totally reverse the whole weight distribution and almost over compensate onto the front foot with say a 65-35 weight split on to the lead leg. Inconceivable in MT where they’d get the shit kicked out of your front leg or eat far too many knees. As late comers to boxing they make up for lack of “traditional” boxing skills with all-round toughness, years of hard fought ring experience on the MT circuit and tremendous fighting spirit. They tend to feel more comfortable as pressure fighters close to their prey in the pocket similar to MT. Hence so much weight on the lead leg so they can lean in and start to pound. Very similar to what a lot of Mexicans do, just think “El Terrible” when he’s going in for the kill.

Remember I’m generalising a bit and talking in general about Thai converts obviously there are some exceptions, but they tend to be slightly unusual like Samart.

To highlight a little of what I’m talking about here are two clips of the same fighter, Sam-A. He’s a current top 5 MT P4P king and former Lumpinee Stadium champion as well 2011 Thai sportswriters Fighter of the Year.

Here he is (Blue) fighting MT in Lumpinee against another top Thai Kongsak (Red) last year. Watch the weight distribution:


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



Now watch him (White) in his pro boxing debut only last month against a Pinoy. Again notice the weight shift:


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Now what you’re seeing between the two clips is how 90% of Thai MT fighters adapt when the turn over to Boxing. OK Sam-A still dances away a bit onto the backfoot, but this is only his debut, once they fully changeover it’s all the front foot and forward, forward, forward.

Now back to the question in relation to Samart and MMA. What I treid to do with the above explanation is highlight just how "differenat" Samart was to the average Thai fighter. Samart was no ordinary Thai fighter, he broke the mould massively, and he was very different to most. He wasn’t the one dimensional forward stalking wrecking machine that most Thais are, he preferred fighting at range with punches and kicks and had an uncanny ability to just read everything so well, You’re hard pressed to find a fighter who was just as comfortable and such a pure natural in the ring, he almost looks like he’s gassed he’s so relaxed even against the toughest fighters in the world. Somrak Khamsing is another with that gift whatever the style MT, Boxing …….or dare I say it MMA. For me in the two clips you posted he hasn’t massively changed his style or stance compared to most Thais. Sure he’s more stationary and more on the back foot when he’s fighting MT and yes he’s more on his toes with a more equal weight shift when boxing, but his style is basically the same it’s just practicality that has made him adapt. I think Samart is very unusual in the sense that the difference between the two stances is very small compared to other Thais that fight between styles, the leap from one to the other is very small and I think that would benefit him in an MMA environment.

I think if he moved into the MMA realm (which I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have done unless it was for some kind of giant one off payday super fight), I think he’d basically fight between the two stances with his preference being the MT stance so he could try to keep his opponent at bay. And if things got to close he’d slip into his heavy lead leg to throw his fists. I think it’s as simple as that, he’d just shift between the two. But l think for most Thais that move to MMA they will always always be strikers at heart and never really get to grips with the subtleties of the grappling shooting side of MMA. Yodsannan and Rambaa are examples of even with MMA training you can take the dog out of the fight but you can never take the fight out of the dog.

I don’t know enough about MMA to know if guys pick a stance for a certain style of opposition when they stand up or not so I can’t speak on how he may have adapt to a so called “MMA” stance, but as no one replied and Samart is one of my favourite fighters I thought I had to post. (Long and rambling, late here ).

By the way in that clip you posted of Samart fighting the Jap, he’s just playing, seriously just playing.

Here’s a more “focused” Samart against fellow ATG in Lumpinee Nampon Nongkeeprawayuth:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Thanks for detailed response. I was hoping you would chime in when I made this thread. It's great to have you on this forum.

I know that Thai fighters are very adept regarding stand-up grappling. I realize they are not Judokas, but they have to worry about sweeps and throws. However, they do not have to worry about single and double leg take downs. I don't know if the need to sprawl would force them to alter their stance.

When the Thai Boxers switch to Western Boxing; the kicks, knees, elbows, and clinch all disappear. This forces them to adjust their stance to be ready to do nothing but punch. Imagine facing Mike Tyson in a Muay Thai stance, and not being allowed to kick. Well, since most of these guys we're mentioning are smaller, imagine Chavez or Pacquiao. I still can't help but wonder if Fenech was such a problem for Payakaroon because of the fact there is no way a guy his size could get inside on him like that if kicks, and Muay Thai clinch work, were allowed.

Since Muay Thai fighters could essentially use their entire offence, rules vary with elbows in certain orgs, I wonder if they would have to change their stance at all. I'm always screaming for more jabs, but I come from a western boxing background. If I were more familiar with a Muay Thai skill set, I wonder if I would be screaming for something else.

boranbkk, what do you scream at fighters for not doing when watching mma?
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Old 08-02-2012, 03:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: What would Samart Payakaroon do?

Fenech was a problem for Samart because he was horribly drained at the weight and Fenech is arguably the toughest head to head proposition around that weight not called Wilfredo Gomez or Eder Jofre. Awful matchup for Samart anyway, but I would've loved to have seen it play out over the scheduled distance, was a perfect styles clash on paper, Payakroon's legs went pretty quickly though. And without 'em he was ****ed.

Pintor was horribly shot so Samart's best boxing showing is against the tough and hard punching but basic Mexican aggressor Juan 'Kid' Meza. Awesome display of movement, defence (seriously Samart rivals Sweet Pea himself in the last round) and accuracy. Not a great fight by any means, but until someone makes me hit the stratosphere upon proving that footage of Samart's debut against Vorasingh exists, I'll go with that one.

Best performance by a convert in boxing is by Khaokor Galaxy against Sung-Kil Moon IMO. That man displays both facets of Thai footwork against an iron chinned gravel fisted legend. And beats the living shit out of him.
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Old 08-02-2012, 06:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: What would Samart Payakaroon do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rekcutnevets View Post
Thanks for detailed response. I was hoping you would chime in when I made this thread. It's great to have you on this forum.

I know that Thai fighters are very adept regarding stand-up grappling. I realize they are not Judokas, but they have to worry about sweeps and throws. However, they do not have to worry about single and double leg take downs. I don't know if the need to sprawl would force them to alter their stance.

When the Thai Boxers switch to Western Boxing; the kicks, knees, elbows, and clinch all disappear. This forces them to adjust their stance to be ready to do nothing but punch. Imagine facing Mike Tyson in a Muay Thai stance, and not being allowed to kick. Well, since most of these guys we're mentioning are smaller, imagine Chavez or Pacquiao. I still can't help but wonder if Fenech was such a problem for Payakaroon because of the fact there is no way a guy his size could get inside on him like that if kicks, and Muay Thai clinch work, were allowed.

Since Muay Thai fighters could essentially use their entire offence, rules vary with elbows in certain orgs, I wonder if they would have to change their stance at all. I'm always screaming for more jabs, but I come from a western boxing background. If I were more familiar with a Muay Thai skill set, I wonder if I would be screaming for something else.

boranbkk, what do you scream at fighters for not doing when watching mma?
Good post and thanks again for the welcome. I like the mix here in the MMA forum and I love the fact a poster can go from classic to techincal to contemporary all in one thread. It's a small group of regulars in here and most have something to say which I really like. People may disagree but I think there is a good mix of knowledge in here I've learnt alot about the current MMA scene.

When I watch MMA my biggest two gripes are the genreal lack of quality in the striking department and how so many of the fighters panic underfire. Many many many of the guys don't seem to know how to take or check strikes and go into panic stations and crumble. However, that being said it's understandable as alot of the guys come form grappling/wrestling backgrounds. It also seems many of the guys who start thier careers as pure MMA guys without any grounding in one particular art and cross train form the start have a blown up sense of thier striking capabilities or maybe they've all just been listening to Joe Rogan's commentary on the "high standared of their MT striking" .

What might surprise you when I watch MMA, it's the groundwork that I really enjoy watching. This has surprised me to . I struggle to take alot of the striking seriously, but as whose into pure effective forms of fighting it's the grappling that seems to be of a high standard so I enjoy watching it, in a similar way to how I enjoy watching the Judo at the Olympics. It seems there's an imbalance of quality between ground work and striking with the ground work being right up there and the stiking... welll you know. However, from a fight or training point of view I'll always be an Muay Thai purist who likes his boxing and would never consider training in any form grappling or wrestling, just dosen't appeal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Fenech was a problem for Samart because he was horribly drained at the weight and Fenech is arguably the toughest head to head proposition around that weight not called Wilfredo Gomez or Eder Jofre. Awful matchup for Samart anyway, but I would've loved to have seen it play out over the scheduled distance, was a perfect styles clash on paper, Payakroon's legs went pretty quickly though. And without 'em he was ****ed.

Pintor was horribly shot so Samart's best boxing showing is against the tough and hard punching but basic Mexican aggressor Juan 'Kid' Meza. Awesome display of movement, defence (seriously Samart rivals Sweet Pea himself in the last round) and accuracy. Not a great fight by any means, but until someone makes me hit the stratosphere upon proving that footage of Samart's debut against Vorasingh exists, I'll go with that one.

Best performance by a convert in boxing is by Khaokor Galaxy against Sung-Kil Moon IMO. That man displays both facets of Thai footwork against an iron chinned gravel fisted legend. And beats the living shit out of him.
Great post again Flea, always on the money.

You've thrown down the guantlet there with the Samart Vorasingh footage. I'll have to see what I can try to dig up.
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: What would Samart Payakaroon do?

Can't see it being out there, but what an amazing viewing experience it would surely be! Samart's pro debut versus ex light fly champ Vorasingh....4'11!

BoranBKK I asked you about 'sab' before...Seņor Pepe over on the classic has seen Saensak listed as 'Saeb' make any difference?
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: What would Samart Payakaroon do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Fenech was a problem for Samart because he was horribly drained at the weight and Fenech is arguably the toughest head to head proposition around that weight not called Wilfredo Gomez or Eder Jofre. Awful matchup for Samart anyway, but I would've loved to have seen it play out over the scheduled distance, was a perfect styles clash on paper, Payakroon's legs went pretty quickly though. And without 'em he was ****ed.

Pintor was horribly shot so Samart's best boxing showing is against the tough and hard punching but basic Mexican aggressor Juan 'Kid' Meza. Awesome display of movement, defence (seriously Samart rivals Sweet Pea himself in the last round) and accuracy. Not a great fight by any means, but until someone makes me hit the stratosphere upon proving that footage of Samart's debut against Vorasingh exists, I'll go with that one.

Best performance by a convert in boxing is by Khaokor Galaxy against Sung-Kil Moon IMO. That man displays both facets of Thai footwork against an iron chinned gravel fisted legend. And beats the living shit out of him.
I'm not disputing anything you are saying here, but I was trying to make more of a point about the transition from Muay Thai to Western Boxing more than anything else. In a Thai boxing bout, there is no way someone could have put his head on Payakaroon and unload on him like that. I don't know that Samart could have ever beaten Fenech even if Samart had never Thai boxed, and been a western boxer his entire life. I was thinking more of how difficult it was for Samart to shift from one style to the other without facing someone that presses as hard as Fenech. I realize Payakaroon had been a professional boxer for nearly 5 years when he faced Fenech, so it wasn't like he made the switch over to boxing with one training camp. Still, I can't help but think that Fenech's pressure made him feel severely handicapped without the use of 6 of his "8 limbs."
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Old 08-04-2012, 05:57 AM   #9
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Default Re: What would Samart Payakaroon do?

Quote:
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Can't see it being out there, but what an amazing viewing experience it would surely be! Samart's pro debut versus ex light fly champ Vorasingh....4'11!

BoranBKK I asked you about 'sab' before...Seņor Pepe over on the classic has seen Saensak listed as 'Saeb' make any difference?
No, just looks like bad Romanaisation to me, one being a Western take and one a Thai take on how to spell it. Common to get multiple romanised versions of the same word.

It's like the current "Buakaw" romanised by Thais, that isn't really correct for English speakers. It should be something like "Buakhao" or "Buakao" or even "Buakhaow".

About Samart's debut, where was it? Very often boxing debuts are the 1st fight on a Raja or Lumpini MT 10 fight card. If it was one of those there may be something out there in Thailand.
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Old 08-04-2012, 08:13 AM   #10
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I'll look into it and get back to you.

Where d'ya reckon Sam A will get to in international boxing, Boran?
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Old 08-04-2012, 08:54 AM   #11
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I'll look into it and get back to you.

Where d'ya reckon Sam A will get to in international boxing, Boran?
Probabaly in his current gym the Gaiyanghadow camp. They have some other western boxers in camp. The mother company as sponsers have some big western boxing names on the payroll including Pongsaklek and have a big interest as promotors for both MT and WB. Althougth Pong seems to train in the national Thai facilites not the Gaiyanghadow gym kinda similar to what Froch does in the Olympic facilites.

For the record I'dont reckon it's a serious move for him just an oppottunity put to him for a payday and to see what he's got.

Last edited by boranbkk; 08-05-2012 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 08-06-2012, 03:32 AM   #12
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Cool, will be interesting for sure
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