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Old 05-28-2012, 12:31 PM   #1
Philly-Tough
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Default Howard Winstone

"If Winstone had carried a worthwhile punch, it is doubtful if any featherweight in history could have beaten him". How true are these words from the Ultimate Encyclopedia of Boxing?
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Old 05-28-2012, 01:09 PM   #2
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

Pretty far off the mark imo.

He'd still get beat up by the brutes of the division (Saddler, Armstrong, Saldivar, perhaps Nelson), the big punchers (Arguello, Jofre, perhaps Olivares) and he'd still likely lose to the sharpest of operators (Pep, Driscoll, perhaps Marcel).

Howard's biggest flaw was not a lack of a big punch, but lack of elite level defense. He was simply too hittable for a boxing purist.

Give him even Johnny Famechon level defense and he becomes a real handful for any featherweight in history, lack of a punch notwithstanding.
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Old 05-28-2012, 01:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

I think definitely Marcel, who proved he could deal with technical boxer types, and those that carried a clout. I can't help think that Marcel would be all over Winstone, much as he was against Shibata, and here against a lesser puncher than Kuniaki. I can't see him dominate Gomez and not see him shutting down Winstone in a similar way. As far as I know the bouts with Hernandez and Serrano were close enough, over 10 Winstone might pull it off I suppose.

Winstone was quality, if he could box like he did and hit like Arguello I'd be more inclined to agree. I actually think he never would've honed his style as he did with two working hands anyway.

But not infallible, still reachable, and could be hurt. I put him alongside Walter McGowan. Gifted technically, but also ballsy, and not on the savant level of technical prowess. Undoubtedly brilliant but not genius.

But extremely resilient, brilliant jab and a hard worker. A top contender in any era, champion in some. But the absolute elite of the division? Not sure he'd had got Saldivar's respect any more, I don't think Winstone won any of them, and the Mexican wasn't exactly adverse to punchers anyway. He'd still get enough off that Winstone wouldn't win any of the three IMO.
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Old 05-28-2012, 01:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

I actually thought Seki was getting the better of Winstone, just by timing the left hand. Tagged Winstone with it repeatedly. Couldn't really make out how bad the Jap' was cut, but to me it seemed extremely fortunate for the Welshman that it was called off in his favour.
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Old 05-28-2012, 01:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

With a bigger punch, Howard would probably of been more aggressive, Less elusive and Mobile...and therefore more accessible, a different fighter in fact,
Vicente Saldivar may have beat him quicker if he could of got to him more often ?? you can not change just one piece of the Jigsaw, it will knock on to the other asserts in terms of application, Give Earnie Shavers Ali's footwork and what have you got....One asset confused Hombre who's probably less effective than his normal one-talent self.
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Old 05-28-2012, 02:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

I'm not sure having a punch would have changed his style much.At least it shouldnt benecessary to get the best out of it... a change mentality wise?Who knows?Definitely possible and maybe not for the better.

Winstone fought like a boxer-puncher anyway, proper distance textbook stuff when at his best and more likely to trade shots and dispense with caution\get a bit careless than he was to stick to safety-first gameplan.

It depends on the punch though.Having a good solid punch wouldn't have changed much.It would just likely bring him some nice Harold Johnson-esque KO's against the second-tier, stop him from getting overrun quite as much late by saldivar etc .But if he had been an effortlessly heavy handed fighter on the level of Lopez, Hamed, Saddler or even Arguello, Jofre etc to mention someone more similar in style of course he would have extremely formidable, as would many very good textbook stylists who just lacked a few notches of offensive firepower.
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Old 05-28-2012, 02:15 PM   #7
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
I actually thought Seki was getting the better of Winstone, just by timing the left hand. Tagged Winstone with it repeatedly. Couldn't really make out how bad the Jap' was cut, but to me it seemed extremely fortunate for the Welshman that it was called off in his favour.
Yeah that was an extremely controversial fiight at the time.I wouldn't hold it much against Winstone for not looking that good as he was faded by that time, but Seki was no spring chicken himself and like Winstone had also been an excellent contender who could have done with a few lucky breaks.

He probably was hard done by with the cuts stoppage and the Japanese commission refused to let any fighters travel to Britain after it, if i remember rightly.
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Old 05-28-2012, 02:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

Of course, Seki was a good fighter who could whack with the left. IIRC he's the toughest challenge Saldivar got in his first run...the first fight. I think he was anyway. Can't think of anyone pushing him that close off the top of my head, well, sitting him on his arse and whatnot.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
Pretty far off the mark imo.

He'd still get beat up by the brutes of the division (Saddler, Armstrong, Saldivar, perhaps Nelson), the big punchers (Arguello, Jofre, perhaps Olivares) and he'd still likely lose to the sharpest of operators (Pep, Driscoll, perhaps Marcel).

Howard's biggest flaw was not a lack of a big punch, but lack of elite level defense. He was simply too hittable for a boxing purist.

Give him even Johnny Famechon level defense and he becomes a real handful for any featherweight in history, lack of a punch notwithstanding.
Fair enough. I don't know enough about the smaller boxers (well that far back anyway) to comment but this book also says he had "defensive artistry". I'm going to watch some of him tomorow, but in your opinion what was his defence like overall?
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:03 PM   #10
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zimV-vkp3M[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LtLL3210tw&feature=relmfu[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih1yX7fc3Lo&feature=relmfu[/ame]


There's some of his prime fights.The other parts of the first two are all up as well.
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly-Tough View Post
Fair enough. I don't know enough about the smaller boxers (well that far back anyway) to comment but this book also says he had "defensive artistry". I'm going to watch some of him tomorow, but in your opinion what was his defence like overall?
It was solid without being in any way special imo. Perhaps similar in level to Ken Buchanan as far as defense goes.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:59 AM   #12
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist View Post
It was solid without being in any way special imo. Perhaps similar in level to Ken Buchanan as far as defense goes.
Not dissimilar to Ken Buchanan in style,but didnt have the same devil or punch,which probably explains Howard having less success.Iremember watching him beat Jose Legra in a non title fight,then getting beaten by Legra in his first defense.Wasnt the same boxer.At his best,one of my favourites to watch.I often think how courageous he must have been with the handicap he had,especially as he avoided nobody.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

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Originally Posted by TED 822 View Post
Not dissimilar to Ken Buchanan in style,but didnt have the same devil or punch,which probably explains Howard having less success.Iremember watching him beat Jose Legra in a non title fight,then getting beaten by Legra in his first defense.Wasnt the same boxer.At his best,one of my favourites to watch.I often think how courageous he must have been with the handicap he had,especially as he avoided nobody.
Did you see the Winstone Legra 1 fight at the time Ted?
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Old 08-03-2012, 07:12 PM   #14
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

Yes Al,black and white on the BBC.It was close but thought at the time it was a just decision.Obviously a long time ago and only a teenager myself at the time so memorys a bit fuzzy but recall they were saying Legra was like Ali.He was taller than Howard and very clever.A classic boxing match and another example of how good,if not great,he was.Just seen the film about him on British Boxers,and it shows you his right hand.What a disadvantage.Comes across as a great lad too.
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:36 PM   #15
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Default Re: Howard Winstone

A nice little piece on Winstone, well worth a watch.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrmkMI6WBNk&list=PLE8D88F6CF4B5DC52&index=90&feature=plpp_video[/ame]
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