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Old 08-04-2012, 04:13 PM   #16
Kittikasem
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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Originally Posted by scurlaruntings View Post
No i'm not. My opinion is based on what i saw in those mens fights. GnP is GnP which ever way you want to paint it. If Jones GnP was that good people would be talking about it the same way we talked about Fedor's. Therefore your comparison in my eyes is completely invalid.
I disagree, I think what you're saying is wrong.

I accept that Fedor also had special GnP, but making your decisions based on "what people were talking about" is totally, totally bogus IMO.

If guy A relies heavily on his GnP and so uses it more and wins fights using it above all else, obviously people are going to mention it most when discussing said fighter.

How does that mean it's automatically better than the GnP of fighter B, who is more well-rounded and more varied, and so relies on it less, uses it less and finishes fights via other means?

You are effectively removing objective assessment of GnP here, in favour of "what people were talking about".

I prefer to focus only on GnP when evaluating GnP, and when I see Jones at work on the ground I see varied, vicious, accurate striking the like of which very, very, very few fighters have come close to matching IMO.

Fedor is a good call in this regard. Tito Ortiz is not. Jones's GnP is of a higher level than Tito's, he'd have bulldozed the guys that Tito beat even more emphatically and impressively. By comparison, I do not believe Tito could have hurt Shogun as badly on the deck as Jones did.

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Again Tito finished more of his fights with soild GnP.
This is irrelevant to who had the better GnP. It's more to do with Tito using his more and fighting weaker opposition. Jones would smear the canvas with every one of those guys on the deck easier and more brutally than Tito managed to, because his GnP is better IMO.

Your point is like saying that BJJ purple belt Cody McKenzie has better submission skills than BJJ 3rd degree black belt Minotauro Nogueira, because McKenzie has 12 submission wins from 13 wins, a much higher percentage than Nogueira's 20 submission wins from 33 wins. It completely discounts the fact that Nogueira was varying his subs rather than always relying on the guillotine, it completely discounts that Nogueira was subbing a higher calibre of opposition, it completely discounts that Nogueira was a more rounded fighter and had other ways of winning fights by using his boxing etc, and it completely discounts that Nogueira was a higher class sub fighter (3rd degree black belt vs purple belt).

Similarly, Tito may have used his more, but it doesn't at all mean his was automatically better because of that.

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Laugh at it all you want but Ken Tito WAS a super fight and Ken was giving the worst beating of his life. If you was watching MMA circa 2002/3 you'd know that and would't be making light of it just to make a semantic and specious point about what you perceive to be a more varied GnP.
So it was a 'superfight' because Ken was a big name from back in the day and both men had big mouths. I have no idea whatsoever what relevance this has to who has more deadly GnP between Tito and Jones. Jones would've ****ing murdered Ken in about 4 nanoseconds as soon as his fight with Shamrock hit the ground, but I'm not even going down that road as this is all pretty irrelevant IMO.

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When Jones does what Vovchancyn did to Inoue who he left in a hospital for 3 months with a swollen brain let me know.
Jones fractured Brandon Vera's face in three places on the ground. He didn't need to beat on him for a long time to do this, because his strikes are delivered with accuracy and venom.

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As the last i checked Shogun survived 5 rounds with your apparent 'flick of the wrist' on the ground.
Don't understand this comment.
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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You always go against the grain Scurla Although I think you are correct in this instance. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say he'd look pedestrian but it seems to me(I don't compete in MMA so I could be wrong) that a lot of his success comes with his physical advantages. He wouldn't get away with as much at HW where guys would be bigger than him.

At the same time though, reach doesn't just make a good fighter. I mean look at Stefan Struve. Jones obviously is a great fighter and has bteean a lot of great fighters like Shogun, Rampage, Machida and Evans
He looses his reach advantage immediately. Secondly Jones is hardly known for his power so how does he keep a 240lb heavy who's bigger stronger and taller than him 'honest'? His striking isn't exactly of a K1 or Muay Thai level so how does he hurt them? How does he defend the TD? Etc etc. At heavy there's far more questions. At heavy he just becomes the same as everyone else except an undersized tweener. Putting the likes of Rampage Shogun et al away is very different to facing a guy like JDS, Cain, Carwin, Overeem, Cormier, Barnett etc.
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:17 PM   #18
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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He looses his reach advantage immediately. Secondly Jones is hardly known for his power so how does he keep a 240lb heavy who's bigger stronger and taller than him 'honest'? His striking isn't exactly of a K1 or Muay Thai level so how does he hurt them? How does he defend the TD? Etc etc. At heavy there's far more questions. At heavy he just becomes the same as everyone else except an undersized tweener. Putting the likes of Rampage Shogun et al away is very different to facing a guy like JDS, Cain, Carwin, Overeem, Cormier, Barnett etc.
I agree that he defintely wouldn't do particularly well at heavyweight but I just think that there is more to him than his height and reach.
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:18 PM   #19
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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He enjoys plenty of physical advantages at 205. Advantages that too many fans are tripping and falling over themselves for in their attempts to offer gushing praise. Up at heavy everyone of those physical advantages goes away. And i'm dam certain he'd start to look very pedestrian.
He would still have a reach advantage against anyone in the top five, and he would at least match height with them, if not have an advantage there as well. So no, not every physical advantage goes away. The window just closes a little.

I know a lot of people want to discredit Jones and attribute all of his success to his physical makeup, so continue doing so. Don't really care.
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:19 PM   #20
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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He would still have a reach advantage against anyone in the top five, and he would at least match height with them, if not have an advantage there as well. So no, not every physical advantage goes away. The window just closes a little.

I know a lot of people want to discredit Jones and attribute all of his success to his physical makeup, so continue doing so. Don't really care.
I think this is the case....
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:21 PM   #21
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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He looses his reach advantage immediately. Secondly Jones is hardly known for his power so how does he keep a 240lb heavy who's bigger stronger and taller than him 'honest'? His striking isn't exactly of a K1 or Muay Thai level so how does he hurt them? How does he defend the TD? Etc etc. At heavy there's far more questions. At heavy he just becomes the same as everyone else except an undersized tweener. Putting the likes of Rampage Shogun et al away is very different to facing a guy like JDS, Cain, Carwin, Overeem, Cormier, Barnett etc.
This is my major concern for Jones at heavyweight.

I think he will still be able to take people down at hw and I think his striking will still be effective, he has a lot of attributes that will make him a difficult proposition at heavyweight - speed, unorthodoxy, length, cardio, takedowns, etc.

But I agree, I don't think he has the power to keep guys off him when they come at him. For me, JJ just will not have the power to back Cigano or Cormier off him when they close the distance, he will land on them but I don't think it'll do much to stop them launching their attacks.
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:21 PM   #22
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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Originally Posted by Rob_Floyd View Post
He would still have a reach advantage against anyone in the top five, and he would at least match height with them, if not have an advantage there as well. So no, not every physical advantage goes away. The window just closes a little.

I know a lot of people want to discredit Jones and attribute all of his success to his physical makeup, so continue doing so. Don't really care.
Right you don't care thats why you responded to me.
Look mate contrary to what you think i wrote his talent is clearly a lot more than his physical attributes. But the hype in my opinion is unwarranted. Fans are talking about him being the greatest of all time at 205 FFS. That kind of hype is ridiculous. If you want to buy that thats your prerogative.
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Old 08-04-2012, 04:38 PM   #23
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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Right you don't care thats why you responded to me.
Look mate contrary to what you think i wrote his talent is clearly a lot more than his physical attributes. But the hype in my opinion is unwarranted. Fans are talking about him being the greatest of all time at 205 FFS. That kind of hype is ridiculous. If you want to buy that thats your prerogative.
Sorry, I do get defensive of him because he has been near the top of my favorite fighters list since the Bonnar fight. Plus, I think that beating four former champions in a little over a year warrants some legitimate hype.

The "I don't care" comment came more from my knowing that opinions can't be changed on the internet.
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Old 08-04-2012, 05:34 PM   #24
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

Have you guys seen Anderson Silvas GnP it is absolutely brutal those elbows he threw at Travis Lutter would make anyone tap
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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Have you guys seen Anderson Silvas GnP it is absolutely brutal those elbows he threw at Travis Lutter would make anyone tap
Those elbows were wicked, but I can't think of times that AS has sat in someones' guard and just wrecked them using GnP. Whenever I've seen Silva ending fights on the ground, it's usually him just moving down to finish off an opponent who has already been knocked down and is almost out (Okami, Sonnen II, Marquardt, Irvin).
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

They did lead to that Sonnen fella posturing up and posting his arm and his gnp made Hendo give up his back Kitt

But Id agree, he isnt really a gnp'er, as you said he normally just follows up a KD
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:38 PM   #27
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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Originally Posted by scurlaruntings View Post
He looses his reach advantage immediately. Secondly Jones is hardly known for his power so how does he keep a 240lb heavy who's bigger stronger and taller than him 'honest'? His striking isn't exactly of a K1 or Muay Thai level so how does he hurt them? How does he defend the TD? Etc etc. At heavy there's far more questions. At heavy he just becomes the same as everyone else except an undersized tweener. Putting the likes of Rampage Shogun et al away is very different to facing a guy like JDS, Cain, Carwin, Overeem, Cormier, Barnett etc.
I love how Jones gets marked down simply because Scurla imagines he won't be able to compete at heavyweight. As if that has any relevance at all to the discussion.

And Tito gets praised for stopping a 38 year old injured Shamrock who would lose by 1st round TKO in five of his next six fights. As if Jones wouldn't beat the living shit out of that Shamrock even easier than Tito did.

How does Tito's fabled ground and pound go at heavyweight, scurla? What's that? It's irrelevant because the man never fought at heavy, you say?

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Old 08-04-2012, 06:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

Retard got his wiki out and still cant read I see
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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They did lead to that Sonnen fella posturing up and posting his arm and his gnp made Hendo give up his back Kitt

But Id agree, he isnt really a gnp'er, as you said he normally just follows up a KD
Agreed. Didn't Silva cut Sonnen with a nasty elbow off his back at some point before the 5th round as well? His limited striking on the ground was so incisive compared to Sonnen's blizzard of tippy-tappy bullshit.
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Old 08-04-2012, 07:00 PM   #30
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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Retard got his wiki out and still cant read I see
Yeah I did check how old Shamrock was for the first Tito fight. I've seen the fight a long time ago, and I remember Ken looking like shit. So I wanted to check how old he was.

Fact-checking is good, Stoo. You can't get mad when someone checks things rather than just making shit up. Maybe scurla should check things sometimes, instead of claiming that Shogun survived 5 rounds against Jones.

Anyway, please explain to me how "Jones probably wouldn't be as effective in a heavier division that he's never fought at" is a good argument against his ground and pound being top-level.

Tito would do much worse at heavyweight than Jones would, so the argument is crap to begin with as well as being irrelevant.

Tito-Shamrock may have been a huge fight at the time, but Ken was old, faded, injured and clearly past it on a championship level. I can't realistically see anyone honestly claiming that Jones wouldn't have murdered him.


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