Shogun is becoming underrated - guy is a top 10 ATG IMO

[Kittikasem]

Injuries have blighted Shogun's career and made him age faster than he should have. He has lost some silly fights in the UFC, and lost some fights he should've won.

But the guy is still an ATG, if you consider his career overall.

I personally rate him a top 10 ATG.

Consider the following facts:


- Pride 2005 GP champion (the #1 fighter of a tournament that included Wanderlei, Rampage, Hendo, Overeem, Belfort, Vovchanchyn, L'il Nog, Randleman, Arona and Sakuraba)

- One of the elite group to be a Pride champion (GP) and a UFC champion

- He was the man to solve the Machida puzzle and end the 'Machida era', taking the Dragon's zero by KO after outfighting him over 5 rounds in the eyes of many

- His win resume is superb by any standards:

Rampage
L'il Nog
Overeem (twice)
Arona
Randleman
Liddell
Machida



I'm basically making this thread because someone said that Rua was a good fighter but not a great one, and would be considered a top 10 lhw ever only. For me, that is complete bullshit.

If you take his win resume, achievements, and his ability in his prime into accout, this guy was one of the best fighters ever in this sport. I consider him the #1 lightheavyweight ever as things stand, and a top 10 ATG.

His ability is underrated because he has came to the cage out of shape and horribly underperformed at times, but if you watch a fully fit Shogun, he is an elite fighter. The way he fought in the Pride GP, using great striking but also great grappling against Nogueira, was a special fighter for sure.

I actually place Rua 10th, ahead of guys like Chuck Liddell, Rampage, Crocop and Couture.


for what it's worth, my current top 10 in order is:

1.Fedor Emelianenko
2.Anderson Silva
3.Georges St Pierre
4.Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
5.Dan Henderson
6.BJ Penn
7.Matt Hughes
8.Kazushi Sakuraba
9.Wanderlei Silva
10.Shogun Rua

Honourable mentions: Chuck Liddell, Randy Couture, Mirko Crocop, Rampage Jackson


I expect Jon Jones (already) to join this list very soon.

[greathamza]

Who has said that he wasnt one of the greatest at LHW?

[Kittikasem]

Originally Posted by greathamza

Who has said that he wasnt one of the greatest at LHW?

Guy said he would be considered top 10 lhw at the end of his career. Can't remember the username. I think that's severely underrating him. His resume and achievements at 205 are, for me, better than anyone else, and I include Chuck and Wandy in that.

[AJAX]

He's a great fighter, but do you think it's possible that he used PED's in Pride and that enhanced his preformance? Most people don't want to acknoledge that it but it actually may be true.

[dranon]

Shogun use to be a great fighter before all the injuries and lay offs. Now His cardio is non existent , his striking is sloppy and he is easily hit as well. I honestly feel machida would do him in if a Rubbermatch occurs. Vera wouldn't have lasted a round with Rua from the pride days, sadly that shogun is long gone and has been for some time. In my opinion the only thing keeping him going is his toughness and above average chin. Maybe he needs to jump on the TRT bandwagon as well.......

[Kittikasem]

Originally Posted by dranon

Shogun use to be a great fighter before all the injuries and lay offs. Now His cardio is non existent , his striking is sloppy and he is easily hit as well. I honestly feel machida would do him in if a Rubbermatch occurs. Vera wouldn't have lasted a round with Rua from the pride days, sadly that shogun is long gone and has been for some time. In my opinion the only thing keeping him going is his toughness and above average chin. Maybe he needs to jump on the TRT bandwagon as well.......

Agree with all of this.

[Kittikasem]

Originally Posted by AJAX

He's a great fighter, but do you think it's possible that he used PED's in Pride and that enhanced his preformance? Most people don't want to acknoledge that it but it actually may be true.

Well, what would you rather we did, erased Shogun and Wanderlei and all the other Pride greats from MMA ATG history in case they might have been taking PEDs? Either way, Shogun wasn't having the injuries in his younger days that he's been having in the UFC, that has made a big difference.

[liger05]

Hasnt he had something like 14 knee surgeries.

[Haggis McJackass]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

Well, what would you rather we did, erased Shogun and Wanderlei and all the other Pride greats from MMA ATG history in case they might have been taking PEDs?

You know how many people put an asterix on Sonnen's performance in Anderson 1 because he failed a drugs test afterwards?

The PRIDE guys have the same asterix in their PRIDE fights. They looked awesome, far stronger and more explosive than they did under the watch of an athletic commission. On one hand, Wanderlei was a beast. On the other hand - of course he was. He was a top-level guy who was roided up to the eyeballs.

Of course, the PRIDE guys didn't cheat. They did what their contracts allowed them to do, and fair enough. But if the likes of Overeem and Sonnen get marked down for their test results, then the PRIDE guys have to be viewed under the same lens. Can't have one group of guys free to take whatever drugs they want, a different group of guy's suppliments are strictly controlled, and then judge them both without acknowledging the different standards.

[196osh]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

You know how many people put an asterix on Sonnen's performance in Anderson 1 because he failed a drugs test afterwards?

The PRIDE guys have the same asterix in their PRIDE fights. They looked awesome, far stronger and more explosive than they did under the watch of an athletic commission. On one hand, Wanderlei was a beast. On the other hand - of course he was. He was a top-level guy who was roided up to the eyeballs.

Of course, the PRIDE guys didn't cheat. They did what their contracts allowed them to do, and fair enough. But if the likes of Overeem and Sonnen get marked down for their test results, then the PRIDE guys have to be viewed under the same lens. Can't have one group of guys free to take whatever drugs they want, a different group of guy's suppliments are strictly controlled, and then judge them both without acknowledging the different standards.

How you cannot see the brutal contradiction in that I do not know.

[Kittikasem]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

You know how many people put an asterix on Sonnen's performance in Anderson 1 because he failed a drugs test afterwards?

The PRIDE guys have the same asterix in their PRIDE fights. They looked awesome, far stronger and more explosive than they did under the watch of an athletic commission. On one hand, Wanderlei was a beast. On the other hand - of course he was. He was a top-level guy who was roided up to the eyeballs.

Of course, the PRIDE guys didn't cheat. They did what their contracts allowed them to do, and fair enough. But if the likes of Overeem and Sonnen get marked down for their test results, then the PRIDE guys have to be viewed under the same lens. Can't have one group of guys free to take whatever drugs they want, a different group of guy's suppliments are strictly controlled, and then judge them both without acknowledging the different standards.

I disagree. If drugs were permitted in Pride, then taking them didn't give you a massive advantage over your opponent since your opponent could take them too. But when Sonnen strolls down to the cage with a 16.9:1 testosterone ratio he clearly has taken a massive advantage over an opponent who is clean as a whistle. That's just logic.

[Haggis McJackass]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

I disagree. If drugs were permitted in Pride, then taking them didn't give you a massive advantage over your opponent since your opponent could take them too. But when Sonnen strolls down to the cage with a 16.9:1 testosterone ratio he clearly has taken a massive advantage over an opponent who is clean as a whistle. That's just logic.

Fair enough to a point. Assuming that everyone was on the same levels of the same drugs. Or very similar at least.

But on the roids, you still look stronger, more explosive and more devastating than you would without the drugs. Because you are stronger, more explosive and more devastating. You can fight harder for longer. Your best performances look better than they would if you were clean. Therefore you look better than you would on natural ability alone.

I mean, Jon Jones doesn't need steroids to look (and be) devastating. Neither did Wanderlei.

But Jon Jones on steroids, with no fear of sanction from an athletic commission, looks even more devastating. And he becomes even more dangerous. So his best performances would look even more ferocious than they do already.

[Kittikasem]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

Fair enough to a point. Assuming that everyone was on the same levels of the same drugs. Or very similar at least.

But on the roids, you still look stronger, more explosive and more devastating than you would without the drugs. Because you are stronger, more explosive and more devastating. You can fight harder for longer. Your best performances look better than they would if you were clean. Therefore you look better than you would on natural ability alone.

I mean, Jon Jones doesn't need steroids to look (and be) devastating. Neither did Wanderlei.

But Jon Jones on steroids, with no fear of sanction from an athletic commission, looks even more devastating. And he becomes even more dangerous. So his best performances would look even more ferocious than they do already.

I don't think you understand the point we're making.

If a roided fighter fights another roided fighter, he may be more ferocious etc but so will his opponent be, so it's cancelled out.

If a clean fighter fights another clean fighter, he doesn't have less of an advantage, it's the same playing field, since they're both the same again.

Only if a roided fighter fights a clean fighter is there a disparity.

[Haggis McJackass]

Originally Posted by Kittikasem

I don't think you understand the point we're making.

If a roided fighter fights another roided fighter, he may be more ferocious etc but so will his opponent be, so it's cancelled out.

If a clean fighter fights another clean fighter, he doesn't have less of an advantage, it's the same playing field, since they're both the same again.

Only if a roided fighter fights a clean fighter is there a disparity.

Ah. So if you had an Olympic 100m final where everyone is roided to the eyeballs, then come back next year with the same guys and this time they're all clean, there would be no difference?

One winner wouldn't look better than the other, and the roided winner's performance would look no more impressive than the clean winner's because he's on a level playing field with all the other cheats?

[Kittikasem]

Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass

Ah. So if you had an Olympic 100m final where everyone is roided to the eyeballs, then come back next year with the same guys and this time they're all clean, there would be no difference?

One winner wouldn't look better than the other, and the roided winner's performance would look no more impressive than the clean winner's because he's on a level playing field with all the other cheats?

It's not the same because the roided athlete's time would be faster.

In fighting, you don't get timed.

In fighting, the wins wouldn't necessarily be any more emphatic for the roided fighter because he'd be facing another guy who'd have better resilience, relentlessness and stamina due to the roids.

This is becoming circular.

My final word on the subject is that there is a clear, clear difference between a 16.9:1 testosterone Sonnen fighting a 1:1 opponent, and two roided fighters competing after both doing whatever drugs they want in the build-up. A clear difference. JMHO.