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Old 08-06-2012, 04:54 PM   #61
Kittikasem
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
I believe that Rashad is very underrated as a fighter.
I agree with a lot of what you've said on this thread, but please, stop with this ****. It's complete and utter manure of the highest and most stinking calibre. Evans is a spectacularly overrated fighter. A good fighter undoubtedly, and a good win for Jones, but to call him 'underrated' is absolute nonsense and a totally unjustifiable statement. Guy was widely considered the #2 lightheavyweight in the world for years despite the fact that Machida, Shogun and Hendo would all have beat the **** out of him the whole time. His resume is way overrated for sure.

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Old 08-06-2012, 06:17 PM   #62
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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So ****ing what? That's a totally arbitrary criticism that's divorced from reality if you think that Rashad and Machida aren't better now than they were in the past.

Rashad, in his twenties, was a one dimensional fighter who struggled with Michael Bisping and a prime Tito Ortiz. When he knocked a couple of guys out, he turned into K-1 Rashad and refused to deviate from his ****ty kickboxing strategy even after being thoroughly embarrassed in the first couple of minutes against Machida.

When Machida first came to the UFC, he was committed to point fighting and avoiding damage to a fault. People love him now, but I remember quite clearly when he was getting booed loudly during his early fights and Zuffa brass passed him over for a couple title shots because they didn't want him stinking out a PPV main event. The Thiago Silva fight was when Machida proved how dangerous he can be when he's aggressive and sits down on his strikes. (FYI that fight and his signature win over Evans both came when he was past the age of 30.)


Like I said earlier in the thread, if the this is the kind of logic that you're using, you're clearly reaching to discredit Jones. Nobody else in the division is consistently having the kind of performances that he is against top level opponents in the division. Look at Shogun. He's clearly deteriorated physically in the past few years, yet his last couple of fights have shown that he's still a dangerous fighter who's hard to put away even when he's dead tired and hurt badly. Hendo beat Shogun's brains in and couldn't get him out of there. Jones made him quit.
"So ****ing what?" I made a post with examples of 20 something year olds fighting 20 something year olds. That was the entire point. Wanderlei was 20 when he turned pro, and was 24 when he began his long streak of fights without a loss. Rampage was 21 when he turned pro, and 25 when he first defeated Liddell.

I'll say it again, Shogun had yet to turn 24 when he had already defeated Rampage, Little Nog, Overeem, and Arona. Against Shogun; Rampage was 26, Little Nog was 29, Overeem was 25, and Arona was 27.

I can't help it that Jones does not have the same sort of contemporaries to fight against as the people I mentioned earlier. I haven't even said it would keep him from being the best to ever fight at 205. I did say this:

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Originally Posted by rekcutnevets View Post
I agree. I just have such a hard time with Jones, because he makes me feel like it's all or nothing. It's as if I put him in my top 4, I almost feel like I'm forced to put him at the top. I just can't do that for whatever reason. Whether that reason is valid or simply nostalgia, I don't know.
I honestly haven't done an all time 205 list in quite a while. I don't know where I would put Jones at now. I'm sure I'll have to face my all or nothing feeling as soon as I do.

In regards to Rashad and Machida being better in their 30's, of course they are. They are great wins for a resume regardless of their ages, because they are still performing at a high level. They are better technically than they were in their 20's. Rashad is definitely harder to beat now more than then. They are not the athletes they were in their 20's, which is more of the point I was getting at.

Rua was facing fighters like him, that were young like him. The same goes for Wanderlei. They're not any young fighters like Jones near the top now. That amounts to something whether you want to admit it or not. How much it is relevant is debatable.

I don't know if you've mistaken me for someone else, but I would like for you to point out where I have ever discredited Jones. Where have I ever said he is over hyped, no where near an all time great, or where I've put he isn't one of the biggest head to head nightmares ever.

I haven't even commented on how great/not great his ground and pound is. It's one of the best I've ever seen if you are wondering. It's hard for me to say it's better than Hughes,' or Fedor's; but he is definitely right there with them.

If you think I've said something that is out of line than you are far closer to being a nut hugger than I am to offering arbitrary criticism.
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Old 08-07-2012, 12:03 AM   #63
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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Originally Posted by Kittikasem View Post
I agree with a lot of what you've said on this thread, but please, stop with this ****. It's complete and utter manure of the highest and most stinking calibre. Evans is a spectacularly overrated fighter. A good fighter undoubtedly, and a good win for Jones, but to call him 'underrated' is absolute nonsense and a totally unjustifiable statement. Guy was widely considered the #2 lightheavyweight in the world for years despite the fact that Machida, Shogun and Hendo would all have beat the **** out of him the whole time. His resume is way overrated for sure.
Evans gets a lot of hate, IMO due to his personality and TUF origin story. But he is a top-level fighter who has shown that he continues to work intelligently and evolve his game.

And I would dispute your claim that he was "widely considered" to be the #2 LHW "for years". I made a poll on this forum straight after his very impressive UD over Davis, and the majority of posters on this board didn't consider him the #2 guy even straight after perhaps his career-best performance. Which came at a time when Jon Jones had brutally slaughtered almost everyone except Rashad.

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Old 08-07-2012, 03:20 AM   #64
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

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Evans gets a lot of hate, IMO due to his personality and TUF origin story. But he is a top-level fighter who has shown that he continues to work intelligently and evolve his game.

And I would dispute your claim that he was "widely considered" to be the #2 LHW "for years". I made a poll on this forum straight after his very impressive UD over Davis, and the majority of posters on this board didn't consider him the #2 guy even straight after perhaps his career-best performance. Which came at a time when Jon Jones had brutally slaughtered almost everyone except Rashad.

Rashad was given longtime #1 contender status by the UFC after only 2 fights since he got completely dominated, embarrassed and destroyed by Machida, on the basis of a boring decision win over borderline top 10 Thiago Silva and a boring decisions win over a rusty, out of shape, toothless Rampage who still nearly knocked him out with a glancing shot. This is officially 'overrating' his status IMO.

The guy seems to be to be widely considered as Jones's "underboss" (to borrow a phrase from The Sopranos) much like Fitch was to GSP at ww, but with no justification for this.

Machida holds a legit, convincing win over a top 5 lhw achieved in the UFC (Evans). Rua holds a legit, convincing win over a top 5 lhw achieved in the UFC (Machida II). Hendo holds a legit, convincing win over a top 5 lhw achieved in the UFC (Shogun). Where is Evans's legit, convincing win over a top 5 lhw in the UFC? Probably the closest he has came was winning the title from Griffin, not as legit as the others IMO, Griffin is not in that class.

Do you really think a guy who has been in and around the title picture for years now on the basis of wins over shot Chuck and shot Tito, B-class Griffin and Davis, and C-class Thiago Silva, and an awful version of Rampage can be being 'very underrated'? False.

I guarantee you that even though Rashad was officially and widely ranked as the #2 lhw between '09 and '12, Machida would've ****ed him up just as badly a second time, and both Shogun and Hendo would've brutally finished the job that blunted ol' Rampage couldn't despite almost getting there with one clipped shot.

Rashad is a good fighter and will always be too rounded and sharp for green guys like Davis or old guys like Tito and Rampage, but against legit top 5 guys he gets stomped.
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Old 08-07-2012, 05:47 AM   #65
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

Who has a PrideFC tattoo? That's pretty cool.
Pride> All orgs.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:38 AM   #66
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Default Re: Does Jon Jones have the best GnP in MMA history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
Evans gets a lot of hate, IMO due to his personality and TUF origin story. But he is a top-level fighter who has shown that he continues to work intelligently and evolve his game.

And I would dispute your claim that he was "widely considered" to be the #2 LHW "for years". I made a poll on this forum straight after his very impressive UD over Davis, and the majority of posters on this board didn't consider him the #2 guy even straight after perhaps his career-best performance. Which came at a time when Jon Jones had brutally slaughtered almost everyone except Rashad.

Basically all your comments about Rashad being underrated and getting a lot of hate should be followed with "on this forum" because overall he is an overrated fighter.
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