How would JDS beating Overeem and Cormier compare to Fedor beating Nog and CC? - Page 2

Will Cooling · 08-07-2012, 02:58 PM

Oh I think if he defeated Overeem, Cormier, Werdum and a fully healthy Velasquez then you'd have to seriously consider ranking him above Fedor on the ATG lists. That'd be a beast of a resume when you consider who he beat beforehand as well. But let's not get ahead of ourselves - the guys made one defense. Long way to go yet.

rekcutnevets · 08-07-2012, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

Give JDS 3 more title defences and he'll be tied with Fedor on four

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

But seriously, I think if he goes on a good run with the belt, he'll definitely be in the discussion with the top 2. I think a win over...um Reem, Cormier, or Cain, will put him above Mirko already imho

The 3 wins over Barnett go a long way for me; then you have Herring, Vovchanchyn, Randleman, Coleman, and Aleks Emelianenko.

For years I've had my top 5 being Fedor, Nog, Cro Cop, Barnett, and Couture. I haven't looked over my top 5 for a while, so I'm sure JDS is now in at 5. I can see JDS passing Barnett with another fight, but do you think one more win gets him above Cro Cop? I'm not saying you can't justify it, or that it is crazy; I'm just interested in reading your reason(s).

greathamza · 08-07-2012, 03:14 PM

Big Nog had proven he was the #2 by beating everyone else and had a crazy record CC had good credentials from K1 better than Overeems and he had a better mma resume by the time he faced Fedor than Overeem if he would fight JDS tomorrow so as it stands right now if JDS won over Cormier and Overeem in a year or so they wouldnt hold up like CC and Big Nog did for Fedor but if they built their resumes a bit more and then JDS wins over them then they may be rated the same but it also depends on who they beat

achillesthegreat · 08-07-2012, 03:17 PM

JDS is only 2 or 3 wins away from being the greatest ever. 2 or 3 big wins to make up for his lack of a Nog, CC rival. Its all to do with his pre title run where he was fighting legit opponents.

Stoo · 08-07-2012, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rekcutnevets

The 3 wins over Barnett go a long way for me; then you have Herring, Vovchanchyn, Randleman, Coleman, and Aleks Emelianenko.

For years I've had my top 5 being Fedor, Nog, Cro Cop, Barnett, and Couture. I haven't looked over my top 5 for a while, so I'm sure JDS is now in at 5. I can see JDS passing Barnett with another fight, but do you think one more win gets him above Cro Cop? I'm not saying you can't justify it, or that it is crazy; I'm just interested in reading your reason(s).

Yeah I do, and it's about styles as well as quality. He beats either of those 3 then he's either beaten the best strike in the division since Mirko (I know Reems MMA record is supplemented by his success in K1 thus far, but it will be a notch in JDS' cap if he beats him, and even bigger one if he does it standing, ala Mirko v Fedor) or one of the two best wrestler in the division, as well as knocking out the two best Jits guys already.

Alot of people are looking back before they were watching MMA on this board and not putting those wins by Fedor and co into proper context (look at davidwatts Mirko thread or Pops' Shogun one an example) And the most people on the board are using wiki as a tool to evaluate...well I wont go there today

But in this context those would be HUGE, the best strike of his generation, the best wrestler and the best jits guy, potentially all three.

rekcutnevets · 08-07-2012, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

Yeah I do, and it's about styles as well as quality. He beats either of those 3 then he's either beaten the best strike in the division since Mirko (I know Reems MMA record is supplemented by his success in K1 thus far, but it will be a notch in JDS' cap if he beats him, and even bigger one if he does it standing, ala Mirko v Fedor) or one of the two best wrestler in the division, as well as knocking out the two best Jits guys already.

Alot of people are looking back before they were watching MMA on this board and not putting those wins by Fedor and co into proper context (look at davidwatts Mirko thread or Pops' Shogun one an example) And the most people on the board are using wiki as a tool to evaluate...well I wont go there today

But in this context those would be HUGE, the best strike of his generation, the best wrestler and the best jits guy, potentially all three.

I just glanced over Barnett's record. I've had him as high as I have for so long because of his wins over Randy and splitting fights with Nog. I believe JDS is now at number 4 on my list, dropping Barnett and Couture to 5th and 6th as a result.

I like the point you made, which I made bold, and agree. That would read very well on his resume. If he defeats Cain again, I won't have him 3rd yet; but he will probably be one fight shy of it.

Ne5ville14 · 08-07-2012, 09:40 PM

It's always about the context !

ufoalf · 08-07-2012, 10:51 PM

Nog and Crocop were in much higher standard than overeem and cormie, relative to the era.

Stoo · 08-08-2012, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rekcutnevets

I like the point you made, which I made bold, and agree. That would read very well on his resume. If he defeats Cain again, I won't have him 3rd yet; but he will probably be one fight shy of it.

if he knocks out Cain in the first without CV putting up any offence like last time then no, I probably wouldnt either
But if Cain stops thinking he's a striker because he kodded Brock & Biggy, comes to wrestle, gets a take down or forces JDS into a period of S&B and/or use his Jits, then Yes, I would put Junior at 3rd over Mirko

rekcutnevets · 08-08-2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

if he knocks out Cain in the first without CV putting up any offence like last time then no, I probably wouldnt either
But if Cain stops thinking he's a striker because he kodded Brock & Biggy, comes to wrestle, gets a take down or forces JDS into a period of S&B and/or use his Jits, then Yes, I would put Junior at 3rd over Mirko

Fair enough.

The thing with a fighter like Velasquez is that he can be a resume boost down the road. Fedor's greatness is based mostly on defeating 2 fighters, because between the 3 of them; Fedor, Nog, and Cro Cop defeated everyone that was anyone. Cain could very well become one of those type of wins.

Stoo · 08-08-2012, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rekcutnevets

Fair enough.

The thing with a fighter like Velasquez is that he can be a resume boost down the road. Fedor's greatness is based mostly on defeating 2 fighters, because between the 3 of them; Fedor, Nog, and Cro Cop defeated everyone that was anyone. Cain could very well become one of those type of wins.

Yeah that's true, who knows Cain could easily lose to Reem and I dont think the Big Foot, Nog and Brock wins put him in the same category as the big 3 of PRIDE yet. Hell, he could take the belt from JDS and things will get real interesting then
But as I say he should stick to his wrestling from now on, AKA guys stand has been shown to be to crude for top level strikers in the past few years.

rekcutnevets · 08-08-2012, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

Hell, he could take the belt from JDS and things will get real interesting then

Yeah, I'm not writing him off in the rematch either. While Dos Santos should be favored in their rematch, I was just assuming a JDS victory for the sake of this discussion.

Stoo · 08-08-2012, 12:28 PM

Well he has the best resume of the current contenders by a mile so the discussion is valid I think. Even if he take an L against Cain the others will still be playing catch up

rekcutnevets · 08-08-2012, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoo

Well he has the best resume of the current contenders by a mile so the discussion is valid I think. Even if he take an L against Cain the others will still be playing catch up

Most definitely. I'm no where near dropping Barnett and Couture for anyone else at the moment.

Hoshi · 08-08-2012, 03:29 PM

I dont think so. Unless Velasquez was to rip through everybody but JDS he cant be seen as huge a scalp as Nogueira.

Nogueira beat everbody available to him and avenged both his SD losses (debatable decisions) via sub and a UD.

He beat a lot of guys before Fedor got his hands on them (Herring, Coleman, Filipovic, Werdum, Sylvia) or perhaps didn't even face (Rodriguez, Kharitonov, Barnett).

I also see an average resume in regards to Overeem.

In short it comes down to how good Velasquez can make his resume ; )

View Poll Results: How would wins over Overeem and Cormier compare to wins over Big Nog and Cro Cop?
Overeem/Cormier would be more impressive wins	4	18.18%
Roughly equal in value to legacy, give or take.	5	22.73%
Overeem/Cormier don't compare to Nog/Cro Cop	12	54.55%
Cigano can never hope to approach Fedor's standing	1	4.55%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

08-07-2012, 02:58 PM	#16
Will Cooling Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,618 vCash: 500	Re: How would JDS beating Overeem and Cormier compare to Fedor beating Nog and CC? Oh I think if he defeated Overeem, Cormier, Werdum and a fully healthy Velasquez then you'd have to seriously consider ranking him above Fedor on the ATG lists. That'd be a beast of a resume when you consider who he beat beforehand as well. But let's not get ahead of ourselves - the guys made one defense. Long way to go yet.
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08-07-2012, 03:14 PM	#18
greathamza Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: sweden Posts: 6,308 vCash: 117	Re: How would JDS beating Overeem and Cormier compare to Fedor beating Nog and CC? Big Nog had proven he was the #2 by beating everyone else and had a crazy record CC had good credentials from K1 better than Overeems and he had a better mma resume by the time he faced Fedor than Overeem if he would fight JDS tomorrow so as it stands right now if JDS won over Cormier and Overeem in a year or so they wouldnt hold up like CC and Big Nog did for Fedor but if they built their resumes a bit more and then JDS wins over them then they may be rated the same but it also depends on who they beat
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08-07-2012, 03:17 PM	#19
achillesthegreat FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,206 vCash: 1000	Re: How would JDS beating Overeem and Cormier compare to Fedor beating Nog and CC? JDS is only 2 or 3 wins away from being the greatest ever. 2 or 3 big wins to make up for his lack of a Nog, CC rival. Its all to do with his pre title run where he was fighting legit opponents. Last edited by achillesthegreat; 08-07-2012 at 03:36 PM.
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08-07-2012, 09:40 PM	#22
Ne5ville14 Rationalist by default... East Side Guru Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 5,897 vCash: 500	Re: How would JDS beating Overeem and Cormier compare to Fedor beating Nog and CC? It's always about the context !
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08-07-2012, 10:51 PM	#23
ufoalf Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Orlando, Florida Posts: 5,690 vCash: 1550	Re: How would JDS beating Overeem and Cormier compare to Fedor beating Nog and CC? Nog and Crocop were in much higher standard than overeem and cormie, relative to the era.
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08-08-2012, 12:28 PM	#28
Stoo RIP T-Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 14,985 vCash: 1000	Re: How would JDS beating Overeem and Cormier compare to Fedor beating Nog and CC? Well he has the best resume of the current contenders by a mile so the discussion is valid I think. Even if he take an L against Cain the others will still be playing catch up
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08-08-2012, 03:29 PM	#30
Hoshi J. Lannister UD Epic Bear ESB Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lancs UK Posts: 838 vCash: 2419	Re: How would JDS beating Overeem and Cormier compare to Fedor beating Nog and CC? I dont think so. Unless Velasquez was to rip through everybody but JDS he cant be seen as huge a scalp as Nogueira. Nogueira beat everbody available to him and avenged both his SD losses (debatable decisions) via sub and a UD. He beat a lot of guys before Fedor got his hands on them (Herring, Coleman, Filipovic, Werdum, Sylvia) or perhaps didn't even face (Rodriguez, Kharitonov, Barnett). I also see an average resume in regards to Overeem. In short it comes down to how good Velasquez can make his resume ; )
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