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View Poll Results: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight?
Fabricio WERDUM 7 41.18%
Randy COUTURE 10 58.82%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-09-2012, 02:49 AM   #1
Kittikasem
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Default Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Rek and I were debating this on another thread. I thought I had Werdum comfortably ahead of Randy at hw, but now not quite so sure.

Please read, vote and explain...



---

Werdum at HW:

Wins - Fedor, Overeem, Aleks Emelianenko, Bigfoot, Gonzaga (twice), Nelson

Losses - Nogueira, Kharitonov, Arlovski, JDS, Overeem

---

Couture at HW:

Wins - Sylvia, Gonzaga, Rizzo (twice), Randleman, Belfort, Smith

Losses - Barnett, Rodriguez, Lesnar, Nogueira

---



Consider these questions:


- Who beat the better fighters?

- Whose losses are more damaging?

- Who had better longevity in the division?

- Who would win h2h between the best Werdum and the best Couture?

- Are there are any other factors you think are relevant here?


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Old 08-09-2012, 07:25 AM   #2
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Couture beat Belfort at Heavyweight?

I rank Couture higher because of his championships. Werdum beat better fighters though and I think is better H2H.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:27 AM   #3
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Kit, I think some of this comes from when we became fans of this sport. I became a fan back in 1994, after watching the first 3 events on vhs. UFC V was the first event I ordered on ppv, and I've ordered most of the events since.

I assume you are a more recent follower. I don't say this to belittle you, because it isn't hard to catch up. All you have to do is watch the videos. I feel like there are numerous posters that are younger than me, that have followed the sport for fewer years, and still know way more about it than I do.

My point is that some of my rankings have been set for years, and someone has to come along and take a spot from someone I've had positioned there for years. Couture has been occupying a higher ranking in my mind for longer than I've known about Werdum. That means Werdum would have to come along and do something to take that ranking from Couture.

I believe you are learning about these fighters a little more recently, and your opinion of them shows it. That's not a bad thing. It's good to have fresh eyes to break up nostalgia from time to time. To be honest with you, I wouldn't have even been thinking about Werdum in an all time sense had you not brought it up.

So, Couture may be holding his spot on my list due to seniority, but that isn't the only reason. Couture came along when the sport was still new, and it would be hard to understand how big some of his wins were without going back and just watching the UFC's in the order that they came along. Belfort was favored to beat Couture when they first fought. The victory over Jeremy Horn was a win over a named fighter. Not many talk about Rizzo today, but that was a big name at the time. Rizzo beat Coleman and Barnett. Barnett is someone that I've ranked ahead of Randy for years, so the Rizzo win over him is a big deal for me. Barnett didn't avenge that loss for years, and really too much time had passed for it to mean much. Rizzo also beat Arlovski and Ricco.

Maurice Smith doesn't look as big in hindsight, but it was very big at the time. Smith had just defeated Coleman when Coleman looked unstoppable. It's hard to understand that fight now, as the rules have changed so much. Coleman probably would have won had that fight been fought under today's rules. There were no rounds, nor stand-ups, for that fight. Just 30 minutes, with a 5 minute overtime. Coleman had Smith down for a long time. There was so much excitement when Smith got back to his feet, because that was not given to him. Smith fought his way back to standing. Anyway... Smith also had 3 or 4 times the amount of mma fights as Couture when they fought, but Couture's edge in grappling more than made up for the difference in mma experience. Smith also had wins over Tank, which meant a little more then, and Ruas. The Ruas win meant more back then as well.

You also have to remember how important Couture's fight with Sylvia was. Sylvia was the UFC champion riding a 6 fight win streak. Couture was a 43 year old man, returning to the heavyweight division after nearly 5 years at 205. Couture dominated Sylvia the entire fight. It was 25 minutes of near flawless execution. Then, Couture went on to defend against Gonzaga, who had nearly decapitated Cro Cop in his previous fight. Randy looked great again.

Then you also have to take in Randy's success at 205. It doesn't have a direct effect on his heavyweight resume, but it still demonstrates his quality as a fighter in mma. It's not like he was competing in a different sport, just at a different size.

I'm sure I'll have many fighters to surpass Randy on my list in the future. His place is no where near a secure as Fedor's or Nog's. It still has to be for good reasons, though.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Couture has done more at heavyweight in my opinion.

H2H, he might have beaten Werdum the way he did Gonzaga.
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:18 PM   #5
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Couture
He was a massive underdog going in against Belfort, Riozzo and Smith and defeated them all very convincingly.
In his second career he did the same to long reigning champ Sylvia and Gonzaga.
GG nearly killed Crocop before.
Randy wrestled him down and took GG's heart in the first.
He was never the same after that fight.
H2H Randy wins a UD by using his greco roman style against the cage,take him down and use some GNP.
Werdum has the most impressive victory by submitting Fedor although it could be argued Fedor then was in his very,very late prime.
So Couture for me
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

You forgot the Enson and Valentin Overeem losses for Randy in there Popkins, Werdum has the better names in the W/L column at HW for me, but Randy got the gold and was the smaller guy in almost all of his HW fights...it is tough
This would go like Nog v Randy imo, assuming you'd pick that comeback Randy as the best version, old school he gets tapped. Think Werdum is competent t enough on the feet and Randy will want to take it to the ground eventually. Rock and a hard place for him stylistically, too small and slow to maintain a safe distance standing, Werdums TD's from the clinch are quite good considering, and on the mat it's not contest
Werdum UD for me
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BewareofDawg View Post

I rank Couture higher because of his championships.
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Old 08-09-2012, 02:35 PM   #8
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David B View Post
Randy wrestled him down and took GG's heart in the first.
He was never the same after that fight.
Gonzaga was always the same guy.

That and Werdum had already beaten Gabe before Randy did.


Quote:
H2H Randy wins a UD by using his greco roman style against the cage,take him down and use some GNP.
Werdum has the most impressive victory by submitting Fedor although it could be argued Fedor then was in his very,very late prime.
So Couture for me
I couldn't see a prime Randy beating this current version of Werdum.

Werdum is literally at his peak right now, with everything seemingly better than it has ever been for him.

Werdum would pull guard on Randy if need be. And if he can't handle Nog's BJJ, WTF is he gonna do with Werdum on the ground?
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Exactly how I see it afterglow, Randy's only advantage is the clinch, and Fabricio could pull guard or even make him down himself from there.
<br />
Randy's boxing is good, but Id say Werdums Muay Thai is enough to deal with that. Interesting side note, look at the win/loss in the OP, note the strikers and grapples each man has beaten in each and an interesting pattern emerges there
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:32 PM   #10
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

The only reason I'm chiming in is because this thread was created as a response to a discussion Kit and I were having in another thread.

Stoo and afterglow, I agree with your head to head analyses. I wouldn't favor Couture to defeat Werdum head to head. We were arguing who ranks higher in an all time sense. Since I agree with your head to head analysis, I'm curious to see if I agree with your all time opinions. Where do you guys side on this?
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:39 PM   #11
Stoo
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Chill out now Rek! Pops did ask about hth and I did type a vague sentence or two about rankings anyway...

I dont know tbh I keep changing my mind everytime I think about it. Id have to go with Randy, x 2 Champion and all, but I do think Werdum has comparable wins, maybe even better. And Werdum was in a MUCH tougher division in PRIDE than when Randy won both his titles...**** I'll stick with Randy though
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:46 PM   #12
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo View Post
Chill out now Rek! Pops did ask about hth and I did type a vague sentence or two about that anyway...

I dont know tbh I keep changing my mind everytime I think about it. Id have to go with Randy, x 2 Champion and all, but I do think Werdum has comparable wins, maybe even better. And Werdum was in a MUCH tougher division in PRIDE than when Randy won both his titles...**** I'll stick with Randy though
Sorry if I come on too strong, but curiosity gets the better of me.

I'm actually glad he started this debate with me yesterday. I haven't even given a thought to Werdum in an all time sense. It's just been a while since I thought about it. You and I had a brief discussion about Cro Cop and Cigano recently, which did lead to me updating my top 6 all time rankings. I guess I need to look at my top 10 again.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Yeah the thing that stumped me was for me it was always the Chuck/Tito wins that cemented Randys legacy, never really thought about how his HW career ranks on its own merits much. But in this case, the mans got a belt, and he defended it, so he would rank higher than Werdum if I was to ever do a HW ATG list
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

I give it to Randy because I think he was better in more important fights, I mean, we should give a bigger value to a Championship fight.....
IS extremely hard to deal with the pressure of a Title fight....Werdum is champion of what in MMA ??

Werdum still didnīt prove that he is capable to be champion....he certainly is skilled to beat guys who can be champions, but I think he is like that team able to beat Barcelona in the middle of a tournmanet or something but fades when is the real thing.....
Werdum still can prove a lot more though.....just saying that for now, I think there is an advantage to Randy in terms of who is greater because he was a true MMA Champion....

And tbh Iīm not impressed by Werdum wins.....Overeem was clearly nothing like he is today, Fedor already past prime, and I wouldnīt say Aleks is a better win than Rizzo, canīt see it....
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Old 08-09-2012, 06:15 PM   #15
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Default Re: Who do you rank higher at heavyweight: Werdum or Couture?

Thanks for all the good responses Rek, Stoo, Vic.

I don't have time to get into a proper discussion now, but I would advise against saying Randy primarily because he was a champion and Werdum has not been. IMO, this has a lot more to do with circumstance, organization, competition, opportunity etc than it has to do with ability.

Consider that Bobby Southworth won and defended the Strikeforce title (as have Shields, Jacare and Rockhold since) while guys like Jon Fitch, Josh Koscheck, Gray Maynard, Chael Sonnen, and Kenny Florian etc have all been unable to win UFC gold (never mind defend it) because the organization is so much tougher.

Does that automatically mean Southworth and Shields are greater fighters than Fitch and Florian?

I really do not believe that the best version of Randy would have done any better in the Pride 2006 Openweight Grand Prix than Werdum did (beating Overeem, losing to Big Nog), and I really do believe that the best version of Werdum could have won UFC gold against Sylvia and defended it against Gonzaga (but wouldn't have lost it to Lesnar).

Circumstances shouldn't obscure a fair assessment of them as fighters.
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