Top 15 Heavyweights ever?

[TheSouthpaw]

Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69

Schmeling's absence should depress you as well....I like to flop them in for Sullivan, Sam & Gene, either way nice list...I love Johnson at 3 even though I don't place him that high personally.

Great list my man!

[TheSouthpaw]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Frazier
4. Marciano
5. Tyson
6. Foreman
7. Holmes
8. Holyfield
9 Johnson
10.Lewis
11. Dempsey
12. Walcott
13. Patterson
14. Liston
15. Charles

[devon]

1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Foreman
4.Johnson
5.Holyfield
6.Lewis
7.Holmes
8.Frazier
9.Marciano
10.Liston

[PhillyPhan69]

Originally Posted by TheSouthpaw

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Frazier
4. Marciano
5. Tyson
6. Foreman
7. Holmes
8. Holyfield
9 Johnson
10.Lewis
11. Dempsey
12. Norton
13. Bowe
14. Liston
15. Moorer

I would love to see your criteria?! I am about as big a Frazier fan as there is on these boards and personally rank him in the 6-8 neighborhood....5-12 seems to be his deserving range. I don't see anyway you can place him #3 even if using a H2H scale I would assume Foreman at the least would pass him in that scenerio.

Norton....some might place him the 20-25 range I would go 30 or so, not sure what he did to crack the top 15....

Moorer top 15? he might not even be top 50 IMHO, what factors did you use on considering your placements?

Bowe at 13 seems a might high as well, but I guess that one is a little more defensible???

Moorer & Norton above....Jeffries, Wills, Vitali, Wlad, Schmeling, Patterson, walcott, Charles, Sullivan seem a might hard to digest.

I don't mean to critique as much as what I really was looking for was your criteria for your rankings.

[DaveK]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Lewis
5. Tyson
6. Foreman
7. Frazier
8. Liston
9. Holyfield
10. Wlad
11. Marciano
12. Dempsey
13. Charles
14. Patterson
15. Walcott

Mainly based on h2h.

[rekcutnevets]

When compiling a list you have to base it more on achievement than a who would beat who kind of list. Styles make fights, and some fighters are more vulnerable against some types of fighters than others. For instance, look at Evander Holyfield. Holyfield has always had trouble with fighters that make him follow them. He is at his best when someone comes to him (Mike Tyson), or when he is able to move in and out on his opponent (2nd Riddick Bowe fight). Holyfield looked less than spectacular with Bobby Czyz, Vaughn Bean, James Toney,and Larry Donald. Age was a culprate in his fights with Toney and Donald, but I think that they would have given him trouble at anytime during his career. There are fighters that Holyfield has beaten that Donald wouldn't belong in the ring with, so Donald will not be making my all time list just because I think he could possibly beat a younger Holyfield too.

You also won't find Jack Dempsey on this list, because he never faced his number one contender, Harry Wills. I like Dempsey, and think he stood a good chance of defeating Wills. I realize that certain situations may have made that fight impossible to make, so I am not penalizing him for not fighting him. Nor can I reward him being that the fight never took place.

15. Floyd Patterson

14. Wladimir Klitschko

13. Vitali Klitschko

12. Riddick Bowe

11. Sonny Liston

10. Mike Tyson

Tyson was the youngest heavyweight champion ever, and had the best blend of speed and power ever seen in a fighter. He came out a winner in twelve title bouts. Tyson had the ability to rank higher on this list, but lacked the discipline. He never bested another elite fighter (Larry Holmes was 37), but Trevor Berbick, James Smith, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Larry Holmes, Tony Tubbs, and Frank Bruno were all world titlists at some point in their careers. The knock on Tyson is that he never really overcame adversity in his fights, but when you were as skilled as he was you don't come across adverse situations all that often.

9. Evander Holyfield

Holyfield moved up from the cruiserweight division, where he was also champion, to excel in the heavyweight division like no other fighter moving up from below 200 lbs. has ever done. What he lacked in size, he more than made up for it with courage, determination, chin, and heart. He also had decent strength, a crisp punch, and above average speed. While his boxing skills were always apparent, he reinvented himself after losing his title to Riddick Bowe in 1992. He put on a masterful performance when he beat Bowe to regain his title a year later. He seemed to decline afterwards, losing a disputed decision to Michael Moore. He again rose to championship form, putting on a wonderful boxing display in stopping Mike Tyson, and another solid outing when he stopped Michael Moorer in their rematch. Other notable wins came against Michael Dokes, an aging George Foreman, an aging Larry Holmes, Ray Mercer, and Hasim Rahman.

8. Lennox Lewis

Lennox Lewis barely edges out Holyfield for this spot on the list. Lewis had his flaws, but did not seem overly confused by any style in particular. He had a size advantage over Holyfield. His competition was on par with Holyfield's. Not to mention a win over Holyfield, though I feel Holyfield had started his decline at that point. Lewis had a booming right hand, stiff jab, and has a victory over every fighter he has faced. With sixteen successful title defenses, spread over the course of two reigns, he ranks third amongst the heavyweight champions. He had a suspect chin, and was not always properly motivated for his fights; but only suffered two set backs in spite of these flaws. It would have been nice to have seen how he would have dealt with Riddick Bowe, but he was able to beat one man that had previously defeated Bowe(Holyfield) He also made short work of Andrew Golata. Golata had previously thrown two dominant performances over Riddick Bowe away due to fouls. Lewis also showed the ability to overcome adversity. He was in very close fight with Frank Bruno, and turned it on to stop him in the seventh. He was losing, in my opinion, to Vitali Klitschko; but seemed to be taking the fight over when that bout was stopped due to an awful gash near Klitschko's eye. Other than the aforementioned fighters, notable wins came against Razor Ruddock, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Shannon Briggs, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, and Mike Tyson.

7. Joe Frazier

Joe Frazier was armed with one the best left hooks in division history, was strong willed, and had the gas to burn. Frazier's most notable wins were against Buster Mathis, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Bob Foster, and Muhammad Ali. It is also important to notice he only lost to two men over the course of his career, both of which make this list.

6. George Foreman

It is tempting to think of Foreman as having two careers, as two different fighters, because of his ten year layoff from boxing in the middle of his career. Also because of his seeming personal tranformation. I don't really buy the make over. I am not saying he is a scam artist, or that he doesn't believe in his ministry. I am referring to the good guy, bad guy routine. I don't believe that Foreman was ever really a bad guy. I think he was perceived that way because of his strong will and savage strength. He brutalized his opponents in a way that it would seem only a thug be capable of. After his ten year retirement he came back near forty, bald, clean shaven, fat, forcing a smile, and perceived by many as a joke. Also perceived was a change of heart. It is hard paint a forty year old smiling fat man as a villian. George Foreman may now be famous for his smile, but he has never been a joke. Foreman posessed a sledge hammer jab, granite chin, dogged determination, and was probably the physically strongest heavyweight champion ever. Before losing his title to Muhammad Ali, he demolished Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. He was involved in one of the greatest heavyweight bouts ever when he knocked out Ron Lyle. He inspired millions when, Foreman age 42, unsuccessfully challenged 29 year old Evander Holyfield for the heavyweight championship. He later went on to become the oldest heavyweight champion in history, 45 years old, when he defeated Michael Moorer. Shannon Briggs found out that a 48 year old Foreman was stil a formidable foe, when he was pummeled and won a disputed decision over him in Foreman's final outing.

[rekcutnevets]

5. Rocky Marciano

Marciano had one of the divisions best chins, bone jarring punch, and seemed able to keep coming no matter what.Rocky Marciano's record run of 49 straight wins is, as of this date, still a record. In fact, he never lost as a profesional. You might wonder how a fighter that never lost is not at the top of the list, but his level of competition is what stops him. For the most part, he faced the best he could. Joe Walcott was an excellent fighter, but was 38 years old for their first fight, and 39 in their second. Ezzard Charles may have been the finest light-heavyweight that ever lived, but the smaller man was into his 30's at the time of their fights. Archie Moore is another argument for best light-heavy ever, but was 38 year old out of his division as well. Marciano would probably rank 2 spots higher on this list if he had fought, and defeated (which was possible), Floyd Patterson. If he had faced, and defeated (doubtful), Sonny Liston; he would make an argument for the top spot.

4. Larry Holmes

Larry Holmes tends to be the most underated heavyweight in history. He ranks second in number of consecutive wins, which was 48. He ranks second with his title reign of over 7 years. He also ranks second with number of successful defenses with a more than impressive total of 20. His level of competition was not the best, but he managed to defeat 8 men that held world titles at some point in their careers. Holmes had one of the best jabs ever seen, was an accurate puncher, and was able to pick apart his opponent 69 of the 75 times one was place in front of him. Notable wins came against Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers, Ossie Ocasio, Mike Weaver, Muhammad Ali, Trevor Berbick, Leon Spinks, Gerry Cooney, Tim Witherspoon, James Smith, Carl Williams, and Ray Mercer. Holmes was age 42 when he beat undefeated, 30 year old, Ray Mercer.


3. Jack Johnson

You almost have to rank Jack Johnson highly just on the hell he went through to become champion. It was not easy being black in the early 1900's, and Johnson endured a double dose of hatred. Whites hated Johnson because he was black, and good. Some blacks hated him because he didn't act according to society's standards, and thought that his defiance of the racist majority brought a bad name to all black people. Johnson fought during a time that white fighters could duck black fighters by claiming that they did not believe in fighting people of another race. Johnson had to prove he was the best black heavyweight in the world long before he proved he was simply the best heavyweight. Notable wins came against Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Flynn, Tommy Burns, Al Kaufman, Stanly Ketchel, and Jim Jeffries.

2. Joe Louis

Louis may have had the best offensive arsenal in heavyweight history. His power was not that of someone like Mike Tyson, but he could definately hurt you with every punch he hit you with. The closest comparison I can think of at this writing is a heavyweight Julio Cesar Chavez. He has the longest title reign of anyone, over 12 years. He also has more consecutive title defenses than anyone with 26. Notable wins came against Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, James Braddock, Max Schmeling, John Henry Lewis, Billy Conn, and Joe Walcott.

1. Muhammad Ali

Ali may arguably be the most famous athelete ever, but that is not why he ranks at the top of this list. He had a top notch jab, exceptional speed, great chin, a will to win like no other; and he fought during the divisions most competive era. He has the most notable win column of this list with Henry Cooper, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell, Zora Folley, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle, and Ernie Shavers.

[Danmann]

Ali was not considered greatest by boxing experts when he fought, he was called greatest by generation of new writers who loved his attitude and politics. Check out old boxing magazines from 1960's and 1970's to see how experts rated him.

He did not deserve second fight decison agianst Frazier, he held 132 times in recount done by Eddie Futch. I know Futch was in fraziers corner, but he still had the fight film to point out to reporters and he counted it out for them. If Frazier gets that decision, promoters lose millions. People talk now of Arum and others being crooked, look at how Ali was given a total gift in boht Norton rematches.

[devon]

Originally Posted by Danmann

Ali was not considered greatest by boxing experts when he fought, he was called greatest by generation of new writers who loved his attitude and politics. Check out old boxing magazines from 1960's and 1970's to see how experts rated him.

He did not deserve second fight decison agianst Frazier, he held 132 times in recount done by Eddie Futch. I know Futch was in fraziers corner, but he still had the fight film to point out to reporters and he counted it out for them. If Frazier gets that decision, promoters lose millions. People talk now of Arum and others being crooked, look at how Ali was given a total gift in boht Norton rematches.

If Promoters would lose millions if Ali lost the second fight then why did they give Frazier the first fight.

[Danmann]

Originally Posted by devon

If Promoters would lose millions if Ali lost the second fight then why did they give Frazier the first fight.

To make the millions it bought in and cause it had to be made to unite title, people would not stand for split title then. If Ali loses two in row, he is gone, or at least on shelf, and Frazier would not bring in same amount of money. Frazier winning once was ok, but twice, they would not let it happen. Same with Norton. Norton gets decision he deserves in second fight, Ali is out of picture for a while. A Norton defense does not make some money as Ali does. Norton got robbed as bad as anyone ever got robbed. They fucked him over twice to keep Ali going.

[devon]

Originally Posted by Danmann

To make the millions it bought in and cause it had to be made to unite title, people would not stand for split title then. If Ali loses two in row, he is gone, or at least on shelf, and Frazier would not bring in same amount of money. Frazier winning once was ok, but twice, they would not let it happen. Same with Norton. Norton gets decision he deserves in second fight, Ali is out of picture for a while. A Norton defense does not make some money as Ali does. Norton got robbed as bad as anyone ever got robbed. They fucked him over twice to keep Ali going.

Have you actually watched the 2nd Frazier and Norton fights Ali won both of those no contest. There was no controversy in either of those fights. Prove me wrong by providing some evidence that the fights were fixed other than Ali would make them more money.

[Danmann]

Originally Posted by devon

Have you actually watched the 2nd Frazier and Norton fights Ali won both of those no contest. There was no controversy in either of those fights. Prove me wrong by providing some evidence that the fights were fixed other than Ali would make them more money.

How can you say that.No controversy???? You must be kidding.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by Danmann

How can you say that.No controversy???? You must be kidding.

Do you know how to score a fight? How can you score Ali-Frazier II for Frazier?

[Danmann]

Here is one article written day after fight, it mentions that many felt Frazier won, as I did. I thought due ot the excessive holding (and refusal to break when ordered to by ref) Frazier deserved ddecison.


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[Danmann]

I don;t want to get away form topic, sorry. I think four best ever, guys I would pick over anyone but other 3, are Tyson Marciano Louis and Depmpsy. Marciano is one I pick on top, cause if it came down to making a money bet on fight, he is the one I could not see betting agaisnt.

Jeffires is tough to figure, film of him and others of era were not high quality, but many said he stood out in that era. I left him of my list.