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Old 08-19-2012, 09:10 AM   #121
lufcrazy
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Default Re: Top Five Greatest Fighters Ever

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Originally Posted by Kittikasem View Post
A title win, 3 defences, and a stoppage loss = strong achievement???

I don't think so.

You are rating Hearns at welterweight on the basis of Hearns as the fighter he proved to be through all weight classes across his whole career, which is bogus IMO.

Well, either that or you're rating him as a proven great welterweight because of one win over a top guy, 3 wins over mediocrities, and a stoppage loss he looked good in. This is a very dangerous road to go down - where does it end?

Is Manny Pacquiao a proven great light-welterweight because he obliterated one of the best lww's of his era there?

You have to draw a line between 'looking good there' and proving good there. Hearns was an h2h monster at ww and fully merits recognition as such. But he simply did not prove to be a great welterweight in the same way as many others who had many more meaningful wins there.
he proved himself to be the second best of the Leonard era which is a massive achievement in it's own. he destroyed a hof fighter in one of the best performances the division has ever seen. he built a reputation as one of the best fighters to weigh within 147.

his resume isn't piss poor neither: Cuevas, Finch, Gray, Weston, Curry, Muangsurin, Espada, Primera, Shields - Leonard (L).

all in all I have him number 19 as a WW.

Jones Jr breaks my top 10 as a LHW also.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:00 AM   #122
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Default Re: Top Five Greatest Fighters Ever

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he proved himself to be the second best of the Leonard era which is a massive achievement in it's own
This is just hyperbole. It is not a "massive" achievement to beat Cuevas and a couple of routine challengers. Come on. In a discussion of the greatest ww's ever, that obviously isn't a "massive" achievement.

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all in all I have him number 19 as a WW.
Well, that seems fair enough to me. Not sure if I'd have him that high as have never bothered to make a top 20 or so for ww, but that doesn't seem too outlandish. His win over Cuevas was excellent, his performance against Leonard showed some considerable skill, and he was convincing in his ww title defences, few that there were.
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:17 PM   #123
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Default Re: Top Five Greatest Fighters Ever

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Originally Posted by Kittikasem View Post
This is just hyperbole. It is not a "massive" achievement to beat Cuevas and a couple of routine challengers. Come on. In a discussion of the greatest ww's ever, that obviously isn't a "massive" achievement.



Well, that seems fair enough to me. Not sure if I'd have him that high as have never bothered to make a top 20 or so for ww, but that doesn't seem too outlandish. His win over Cuevas was excellent, his performance against Leonard showed some considerable skill, and he was convincing in his ww title defences, few that there were.
well our definition of massive differs obviously

it's good the subjective nature of our sport, the way two people can see the exact same things yet see something totally different
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:54 PM   #124
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Default Re: Top Five Greatest Fighters Ever

Safest bets against peers or other atgs :

Ray Robinson
Roy Jones
Ray Leonard
Cassius Clay
Pernell Whitaker
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Old 08-19-2012, 08:56 PM   #125
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Default Re: Top Five Greatest Fighters Ever

Glad to see Fitzsimmons back to being overrated. Armstrong has an argument as the GOAT, let alone top 5. Charles, Benny Leonard, & possibly Pep all have better arguments to be ranked ahead of Louis and Fitzsimmons IMO. I'll respect those that disagree strongly on the latter. Actually, I'd probably rank Mickey Walker ahead of Louis.

I think Vic is right in that Joe Gans gets overlooked far too often. I'm not sure he's top five but he certainly isn't rated in enough peoples top 10 or 15's. I feel similarly about Benny Leonard too.
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Old 08-19-2012, 08:57 PM   #126
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Default Re: Top Five Greatest Fighters Ever

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All factors included, pound for pound, record, legacy... all of it.

Harry Greb
Sam Langford
Sugar Ray Robinson
Robert Fitzsimmons
Joe Louis

Who else can the argument be made for to fit into this utmost top echelon. Armstrong comes to mind but a relatively short prime hinders him just enough. Ali certainly has a case. Duran has a case in my mind but again comes up just short. I don't think the dust has settled enough on the fighter of the past 20 or 30 years to properly place them but I suspect none qualify to threaten anyone in this group.



Thoughts?
It's a great list ...

Langford to me is tops on any
Greb
Robinson
Fitz
Charles
Gans
Johnson
Ali
Louis
Leonard
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:12 PM   #127
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Default Re: Top Five Greatest Fighters Ever

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Glad to see Fitzsimmons back to being overrated. Armstrong has an argument as the GOAT, let alone top 5. Charles, Benny Leonard, & possibly Pep all have better arguments to be ranked ahead of Louis and Fitzsimmons IMO. I'll respect those that disagree strongly on the latter. Actually, I'd probably rank Mickey Walker ahead of Louis.

I think Vic is right in that Joe Gans gets overlooked far too often. I'm not sure he's top five but he certainly isn't rated in enough peoples top 10 or 15's. I feel similarly about Benny Leonard too.
PTP!
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:29 PM   #128
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Default Re: Top Five Greatest Fighters Ever

Hearns was matched very competitively on the way up at Welter.He cleaned out most of the fading-but still decent-former top contenders\fringe contenders\prospects, top ten men and some fighters from 140 that you would expect a prospect to be matched with.

Definitely true he's more of a h2h man that someone who gets in from fighting a whole era's worth of Welters.Leonard and Duran are the same.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:25 PM   #129
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Default Re: Top Five Greatest Fighters Ever

1. Duran
2. Ray Robinson
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