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View Poll Results: More Skilled
Floyd "Money" Mayweather Jr. 107 50.95%
Roberto "Manos De Piedra" Duran 103 49.05%
Voters: 210. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-19-2012, 06:04 PM   #196
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

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Originally Posted by Jack View Post
Exactly. Look at the heavyweight division for further proof of that. Instead of guys getting in the boxing gym and working hard on their technical issues, they're down at the bodybuilding gym adding muscle which is frankly unnecessary or adding fat because they think weight alone is a bonus. Or look elsewhere at fighters like Andre Berto who has a brilliant physique for modelling but not for boxing. He has a huge upper body and legs like twigs. That is ridiculous. It's detrimental for a fighter to have a big, muscular upper body and if they are going to pack muscle on, it should be on the legs. Realistically, Berto should be 10lbs lighter than he is because he has excess muscle but I guess he wants that sort of appearance for aesthetic reasons and also because he, falsely, believes that such a good physique will improve him as a fighter.

There is far too much emphasis on strength, height and weight in modern boxing. You could click on any debate on here and within 5 comments, you'll see someone saying "Fight A has an inch more reach and weighs 2lbs more on fight night, so he'll win!". It's stupid. Boxing isn't about cavemen slugging out at each other and whoever is the bigger stronger guy wins. It really is the 'Sweet Science' and the sooner boxers start focusing on improving technically and forget about building an aesthetic physique, the sooner boxing will benefit as a sport.

If you want to look at who does it properly in boxing right now, look at the guys who are also fighting within their proper weight class. Mayweather, Pacquiao, Froch, Hopkins, Marquez, Ward etc., are all guys who are fighting at a weight limit which suits them. Yet again, fighters are hurting themselves by trying to be as big and strong as possible by cutting weight, a method which can be drastically detrimental to a boxers ability to win a bout.

Technique in boxing will always be the deciding factor, not size or any other physical strengths.
Good post
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:16 PM   #197
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

This requires abit of time now so bare with me.


Well it comes down to what you define skill in a great Athelete. If you boil it down there are three things that makes up the overall skill of a fighter. It's the technique, atheltics and ring intelligence.

I can't really argue with that the Technique hasn't changed that much if all. But however there are room for improvements everwhere and boxing isn't an exception.

When I mean the Athletics I mean the performance of the body of the fighter. The training methods has improved. The Recovery has improved. The general knowledge of how and when to train has improved. Just look around at every other sport and you find evidence for it.

THen there is the ring intelligence, Floyd often gets critized for his lack of commitment to fight in the ring. Well as an spectator this is ofcourse a bad thing but for the fighter there is always an advantage to fight the way you want to fight no matter what.


Let's say both of them meet as they where in there primes. Not as what they would have been under any other conditions. Then Floyd would probably be the stronger, faster and more agile of them two.
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:17 PM   #198
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

Floyd Jr would beat Duran to pulps beyond 135. I honestly can't see Jr losing at 130-135 either. Too much defense, too fast, too strong. Sure Duran's inside game is insane, but Floyd always finds a way to get it done.
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:19 PM   #199
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

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Originally Posted by Ahurath View Post
This requires abit of time now so bare with me.


Well it comes down to what you define skill in a great Athelete. If you boil it down there are three things that makes up the overall skill of a fighter. It's the technique, atheltics and ring intelligence.

I can't really argue with that the Technique hasn't changed that much if all. But however there are room for improvements everwhere and boxing isn't an exception.

When I mean the Athletics I mean the performance of the body of the fighter. The training methods has improved. The Recovery has improved. The general knowledge of how and when to train has improved. Just look around at every other sport and you find evidence for it.

THen there is the ring intelligence, Floyd often gets critized for his lack of commitment to fight in the ring. Well as an spectator this is ofcourse a bad thing but for the fighter there is always an advantage to fight the way you want to fight no matter what.


Let's say both of them meet as they where in there primes. Not as what they would have been under any other conditions. Then Floyd would probably be the stronger, faster and more agile of them two.
And that's a discussion for another time and place which does not belong in one comparing just the skills of both fighters.
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:25 PM   #200
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

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Nobody yet has been able to actually spell out how Floyd had more skills. Floyd fans have only distracted from the issue talking about how Duran is overrated and how his voters are biased. Duran has displayed impressive performances against greater fighters with disadvantages Floyd has never had. The gap in greatness is due exactly to Duran's skills. Not his "chin" or his "toughness", but his ability to hit and not get hit against bigger, quicker, stronger, younger fighters, with a number of HOFers and ATGs in there as well both in and out of his prime.

Do you honestly think Floyd would do better against Hagler?
I absolutely believe Floyd could outbox Hagler, just my opinion, I believe Floyd would have the most problems with Hearns due to his length and height, now I believe Floyd is more skilled based off what I've seen from both fighters, I think Floyd has the better jab, how he utilize it to the head and body especially the body the way he uses it to disrupt his opponents rhythm...

One of Floyds best punches the lead right hand takes precision and timing and the ability to get back on defense without taking damage, A skillset that Duran didn't match, Floyd better check hook, Floyd... and again this is based off fights I've seen of both fighters, Floyd is better at set traps and capitalizing off mistakes...

Defense is a skillset where Floyd trumps Roberto, the ability to adapt and negate his opponents best attitude goes to Floyd, I.e his fights with Zab, Oscar, Hatton...Ring generalship and ability to shutout and dominate a fighter over 10 or 12 rounds Floyd see Corrales, Marquez, Baldo, Gatti etc..

Duran was a great offensive fighter with very good bodywork, offensively (combination punching) but Floyd was also very dominant at lightweight offensively, it takes skill to dishout punishment and take very minimal damage in the process throughout our career, besides an edge in power and Durans pressuring ability, I don't see where he out shines Mayweather and power is not considered a skill more a natural gift/talent...so tell me where Duran is better...

And I don't want to hear he fought better fighters in Hearns, Hagler and Leonard who he last to all at some point....
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:26 PM   #201
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

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Originally Posted by Hitta_Squadup View Post
I absolutely believe Floyd could outbox Hagler, just my opinion, I believe Floyd would have the most problems with Hearns due to his length and height, now I believe Floyd is more skilled based off what I've seen from both fighters, I think Floyd has the better jab, how he utilize it to the head and body especially the body the way he uses it to disrupt his opponents rhythm...

One of Floyds best punches the lead right hand takes precision and timing and the ability to get back on defense without taking damage, A skillset that Duran didn't match, Floyd better check hook, Floyd... and again this is based off fights I've seen of both fighters, Floyd is better at set traps and capitalizing off mistakes...

Defense is a skillset where Floyd trumps Roberto, the ability to adapt and negate his opponents best attitude goes to Floyd, I.e his fights with Zab, Oscar, Hatton...Ring generalship and ability to shutout and dominate a fighter over 10 or 12 rounds Floyd see Corrales, Marquez, Baldo, Gatti etc..

Duran was a great offensive fighter with very good bodywork, offensively (combination punching) but Floyd was also very dominant at lightweight offensively, it takes skill to dishout punishment and take very minimal damage in the process throughout our career, besides an edge in power and Durans pressuring ability, I don't see where he out shines Mayweather and power is not considered a skill more a natural gift/talent...so tell me where Duran is better...

And I don't want to hear he fought better fighters in Hearns, Hagler and Leonard who he last to all at some point....
Finally a decent post.
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:39 PM   #202
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

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Nobody yet has been able to actually spell out how Floyd had more skills. Floyd fans have only distracted from the issue talking about how Duran is overrated and how his voters are biased.
To be fair, I don't think there's a single Floyd fan on ESB who is a good, knowledgeable poster so it's to be expected. Most of them will post something along the lines of "man, lil floyd would whoop this dude ass, yall know shit bout boxin" because they're incapable of writing anything better.

I agree with you though. I think there is very little argument to say Mayweather is more skilled.
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:51 PM   #203
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

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Originally Posted by Hitta_Squadup View Post
I absolutely believe Floyd could outbox Hagler, just my opinion, I believe Floyd would have the most problems with Hearns due to his length and height, now I believe Floyd is more skilled based off what I've seen from both fighters, I think Floyd has the better jab, how he utilize it to the head and body especially the body the way he uses it to disrupt his opponents rhythm...
Mayweather outbox Hagler when he's never fought at 160? When he's looked considerably slowed at 154? Hagler was a better boxer in a traditional lateral movement and combinations behind a jab sense. Zero chance for Mayweather to outbox him, especially when Hagler wont respect anything Mayweather throws and could easily be just as, if not more, effective turning into a brawler (which was the opposite of his primary style).

And how does Mayweather have a better jab than Hearns? Hearns had one of the most controlling and devastating jabs of all-time. The physical dimensions of Hearns were downright ridiculous and like Mayweather, he'd mix up the target of the jab, also. Hell, ask Duran about the Hearns jab to the body. It was followed with one of the hardest right hands that was ever thrown (not that Duran would remember that part for obvious reasons).

Quote:
One of Floyds best punches the lead right hand takes precision and timing and the ability to get back on defense without taking damage, A skillset that Duran didn't match, Floyd better check hook, Floyd... and again this is based off fights I've seen of both fighters, Floyd is better at set traps and capitalizing off mistakes...
Duran had a brilliant lead right hand also. As far as I'm concerned, there is no decisive edge there. Both use the same weapon differently.

Check hook? Sure, I'll give you that, but that's one small aspect of a much bigger picture. Duran was no slouch in terms of counter-punching. For all the talk of his aggressiveness, he was fantastic at making opponents pay for their mistakes. Ask Leonard, Palomino, Cuevas, Barkley, etc. Duran made fighters miss constantly, even while being aggressive with his upperbody movement, and he'd crunch them after finding/creating openings from different angles. Mayweather's much more defensive than Duran ever was, but regardless, Duran was an absolute pain-in-the-ass to find cleanly. Like Mayweather, especially with right hands given his rolling ability.

Quote:
Defense is a skillset where Floyd trumps Roberto, the ability to adapt and negate his opponents best attitude goes to Floyd, I.e his fights with Zab, Oscar, Hatton...Ring generalship and ability to shutout and dominate a fighter over 10 or 12 rounds Floyd see Corrales, Marquez, Baldo, Gatti etc..
I'll just say this: Mayweather had more trouble with Judah and Hatton than Duran did with Palomino at welterweight. Duran had plenty of virtuoso/dominant performances against better fighters than Mayweather has fought. I shudder to think what Duran would've done to Corrales, Marquez at 147, Baldomir, and Gatti.

Quote:
Duran was a great offensive fighter with very good bodywork, offensively (combination punching) but Floyd was also very dominant at lightweight offensively, it takes skill to dishout punishment and take very minimal damage in the process throughout our career, besides an edge in power and Durans pressuring ability, I don't see where he out shines Mayweather and power is not considered a skill more a natural gift/talent...so tell me where Duran is better...
I wrote this a few pages back:

Body punching, combination punching, pressuring skills, inside fighting, inside defense, inside positioning, upper body movement, defensive on the front foot, feints, better right hand, better jab, equal timing, ability to seamlessly incorporate offense and defense, offensive angles, fluidity, etc.

Duran was more than pressure. He wasn't your prototypical pressuring fighter stylistically. He could do damage at different ranges and would've have been able to capture a middleweight title against Barkley (about 20 years after winning the lightweight title mind you) had it not been for his upper body movement, countering abilities, and technical skills.

Quote:
And I don't want to hear he fought better fighters in Hearns, Hagler and Leonard who he last to all at some point....
You don't have to. Just watch his lightweight reign and his best performances north of lightweight. The sublime skill will be staring you directly in the face.
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:51 PM   #204
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

People hate to say Mayweather would lose a fight. He would have never fought Hagler anyway. An I wouldnt blame him. Its not that I'm saying Floyd isn't great. Im saying Duran was greater. The skill difference obvious on film
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:53 PM   #205
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

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Originally Posted by Hitta_Squadup View Post
I absolutely believe Floyd could outbox Hagler, just my opinion, I believe Floyd would have the most problems with Hearns due to his length and height, now I believe Floyd is more skilled based off what I've seen from both fighters, I think Floyd has the better jab, how he utilize it to the head and body especially the body the way he uses it to disrupt his opponents rhythm...

One of Floyds best punches the lead right hand takes precision and timing and the ability to get back on defense without taking damage, A skillset that Duran didn't match, Floyd better check hook, Floyd... and again this is based off fights I've seen of both fighters, Floyd is better at set traps and capitalizing off mistakes...

Defense is a skillset where Floyd trumps Roberto, the ability to adapt and negate his opponents best attitude goes to Floyd, I.e his fights with Zab, Oscar, Hatton...Ring generalship and ability to shutout and dominate a fighter over 10 or 12 rounds Floyd see Corrales, Marquez, Baldo, Gatti etc..

Duran was a great offensive fighter with very good bodywork, offensively (combination punching) but Floyd was also very dominant at lightweight offensively, it takes skill to dishout punishment and take very minimal damage in the process throughout our career, besides an edge in power and Durans pressuring ability, I don't see where he out shines Mayweather and power is not considered a skill more a natural gift/talent...so tell me where Duran is better...

And I don't want to hear he fought better fighters in Hearns, Hagler and Leonard who he last to all at some point....
You think Floyd would outbox Hagler? How? Anywhere above 140, Floyd fights in straight lines; Hagler arguably beat a hyper-mobile Leonard past his prime, and beat the especially lateral Hearns in his prime as well. What makes you think Hagler wouldn't corner Floyd, and when he did, wouldn't have his way with him on the inside?

I don't see how you could compare Floyd's combination punching against the likes of Corely & N'dou to Duran's against De Jesus and Buchanan. Against Sugar Ray Leonard, over 15 rounds, he bested him in combination punching. At 154 and 160, he gave Barkley and Hagler and Moore lots of different looks with his combinations, and he wasn't even in his prime or anywhere near his natural weight-class. Better fighters, less advantages.

Stating Floyd is the better fighter on the backfoot is more of a stylistic issue than it is one of skill. In terms of counter-punching and capitalizing on mistakes, Duran was every bit as good. His right hand was more devastating and just as accurate as a counter as Floyd's was. Just because he slipped and countered instead of pull-countering with a slick hands-down upper body leaning pose doesn't mean. If you want to talk defense, Floyd has a better defensive guard, but Duran's movement was more dynamic in that it allowed him to continue moving forward while rarely getting hit flush.

In terms of a jab, Floyd has a great single to the head and to the body, but Duran was able to step into his jab consecutively and turn on a dime real well. I don't consider "jabbing" to be an isolated skill since it only matters in context of the fighter's style, but even there, I don't see how Floyd has a clear advantage.

And no matter how hard you try to invalidate Duran's accomplishments, you're going to hear about his fights against Hagler and Leonard because his performances were unprecedented and historic demonstrations of skill where his advantages were lacking. If we talk advantages against their best competition, Duran was rarely faster, Floyd is rarely slower; Duran was rarely taller/longer, Floyd was rarely shorter. The gap in accomplishments can be attributed to Duran being more complete and proving it against the better fighters.
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:54 PM   #206
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

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To be fair, I don't think there's a single Floyd fan on ESB who is a good, knowledgeable poster so it's to be expected. Most of them will post something along the lines of "man, lil floyd would whoop this dude ass, yall know shit bout boxin" because they're incapable of writing anything better.

I agree with you though. I think there is very little argument to say Mayweather is more skilled.
And theres even less arguement to say Duran is more skilled than floyd, the fans of Duran or the era he fought in against Hearns, Leonard and Hagler who all subsequently kicked his ass where he only decisioned Ray only to get stopped in the rematch..oops i mean where he quit,is this why hes so highly regarded or is it because he had a hundred fights with 90% of his opposition were c level fighters or just bums...
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:54 PM   #207
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Default Re: Floyd or Duran - Most skilled?

Why is there a need for a thread on this.... how is this not obvious enough?
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:55 PM   #208
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You think Floyd would outbox Hagler? How? Anywhere above 140, Floyd fights in straight lines; Hagler arguably beat a hyper-mobile Leonard past his prime, and beat the especially lateral Hearns in his prime as well. What makes you think Hagler wouldn't corner Floyd, and when he did, wouldn't have his way with him on the inside?

I don't see how you could compare Floyd's combination punching against the likes of Corely & N'dou to Duran's against De Jesus and Buchanan. Against Sugar Ray Leonard, over 15 rounds, he bested him in combination punching. At 154 and 160, he gave Barkley and Hagler and Moore lots of different looks with his combinations, and he wasn't even in his prime or anywhere near his natural weight-class. Better fighters, less advantages.

Stating Floyd is the better fighter on the backfoot is more of a stylistic issue than it is one of skill. In terms of counter-punching and capitalizing on mistakes, Duran was every bit as good. His right hand was more devastating and just as accurate as a counter as Floyd's was. Just because he slipped and countered instead of pull-countering with a slick hands-down upper body leaning pose doesn't mean. If you want to talk defense, Floyd has a better defensive guard, but Duran's movement was more dynamic in that it allowed him to continue moving forward while rarely getting hit flush.

In terms of a jab, Floyd has a great single to the head and to the body, but Duran was able to step into his jab consecutively and turn on a dime real well. I don't consider "jabbing" to be an isolated skill since it only matters in context of the fighter's style, but even there, I don't see how Floyd has a clear advantage.

And no matter how hard you try to invalidate Duran's accomplishments, you're going to hear about his fights against Hagler and Leonard because his performances were unprecedented and historic demonstrations of skill where his advantages were lacking. If we talk advantages against their best competition, Duran was rarely faster, Floyd is rarely slower; Duran was rarely taller/longer, Floyd was rarely shorter. The gap in accomplishments can be attributed to Duran being more complete and proving it against the better fighters.
floyd fights in str8 lines?
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:56 PM   #209
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Who the **** did floyd fight? Settle the argument yourself with the answer
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And theres even less arguement to say Duran is more skilled than floyd, the fans of Duran or the era he fought in against Hearns, Leonard and Hagler who all subsequently kicked his ass where he only decisioned Ray only to get stopped in the rematch..oops i mean where he quit,is this why hes so highly regarded or is it because he had a hundred fights with 90% of his opposition were c level fighters or just bums...
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Old 08-19-2012, 07:00 PM   #210
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Mayweather outbox Hagler when he's never fought at 160? When he's looked considerably slowed at 154? Hagler was a better boxer in a traditional lateral movement and combinations behind a jab sense. Zero chance for Mayweather to outbox him, especially when Hagler wont respect anything Mayweather throws and could easily be just as, if not more, effective turning into a brawler (which was the opposite of his primary style).

And how does Mayweather have a better jab than Hearns? Hearns had one of the most controlling and devastating jabs of all-time. The physical dimensions of Hearns were downright ridiculous and like Mayweather, he'd mix up the target of the jab, also. Hell, ask Duran about the Hearns jab to the body. It was followed with one of the hardest right hands that was ever thrown (not that Duran would remember that part for obvious reasons).



Duran had a brilliant lead right hand also. As far as I'm concerned, there is no decisive edge there. Both use the same weapon differently.

Check hook? Sure, I'll give you that, but that's one small aspect of a much bigger picture. Duran was no slouch in terms of counter-punching. For all the talk of his aggressiveness, he was fantastic at making opponents pay for their mistakes. Ask Leonard, Palomino, Cuevas, Barkley, etc. Duran made fighters miss constantly, even while being aggressive with his upperbody movement, and he'd crunch them after finding/creating openings from different angles. Mayweather's much more defensive than Duran ever was, but regardless, Duran was an absolute pain-in-the-ass to find cleanly. Like Mayweather, especially with right hands given his rolling ability.



I'll just say this: Mayweather had more trouble with Judah and Hatton than Duran did with Palomino at welterweight. Duran had plenty of virtuoso/dominant performances against better fighters than Mayweather has fought. I shudder to think what Duran would've done to Corrales, Marquez at 147, Baldomir, and Gatti.



I wrote this a few pages back:

Body punching, combination punching, pressuring skills, inside fighting, inside defense, inside positioning, upper body movement, defensive on the front foot, feints, better right hand, better jab, equal timing, ability to seamlessly incorporate offense and defense, offensive angles, fluidity, etc.

Duran was more than pressure. He wasn't your prototypical pressuring fighter stylistically. He could do damage at different ranges and would've have been able to capture a middleweight title against Barkley (about 20 years after winning the lightweight title mind you) had it not been for his upper body movement, countering abilities, and technical skills.



You don't have to. Just watch his lightweight reign and his best performances north of lightweight. The sublime skill will be staring you directly in the face.
Look we could debate abput this for weeks, my stance wont change neither will yours, floyd is better imo so you can say duran lead was beter i still disagree etc.

Now im saying if Hagler and floyd could meet somewhere at 154 my money is on Floyd im not just talking ive seen Hagler and Duran fight, i dont hold the so called "Golden Era " in such high regard...
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