Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-23-2012, 04:55 AM   #31
brnxhands
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Bronx ny
Posts: 4,954
vCash: 495
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

I was about to order "the fearless harry greb" today but it's so expensive for just a paperback. Is it really a good accurate book?
brnxhands is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 08-23-2012, 08:09 AM   #32
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,664
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Of

Have you so thoroughly reviewed Greb's record to determine that only 3 men of color ranked among Greb's opponents? And further could it possibly be that Irish, Germans and Italians proportionately dominted the sport as African Americans did in later decades? Upon which philosophy do you base that the landscape of the sport would be drastically different?

And I'm no stating that I disagree with you.
No. I am responding to the fact that he is so highly praised for fighting Norfolk, Flowers and a shot Blackburn. He may have fought others whose greatness is lost to history but these are the three most often mentioned. The fact that he did is to his credit but to be praised because of it , to me, clearly demonstrates how many others used the color line to their advantage .. as far as what ethnic groups dominated when I buy it to a small degree ... there was a color line, it was not a level playing field and no doubt the history books are filled with champions and top contenders from the first half of the 20th Century who may not be viewed the same if they had to fight all the best fighters of their time. In addition, if the other ethnic groups were so dominant why did the vast majority hide behind the color line. The answer is obvious, to avoid tough fights they did not have to fight ...
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2012, 12:49 AM   #33
Surf-Bat
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,123
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

More praise, this time from Pittsburgh's black sporting public:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Surf-Bat is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2012, 04:32 PM   #34
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,303
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

I think the black newspapers of the times said something similar about Benny Leonard as he defeated most of the best black lightweights of his time.

Much of the black newspapers also felt Godfrey would defeat Harry Wills.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 01:33 AM   #35
The Long Count
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 992
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

Harry Greb fought Tiger Flowers 3x correct? I read that Greb had won the first fight convincgly but now on boxrec they have the fight labled a draw with conflicting newspaper reports can anyone add any detail to this. The tiger flowers bio page which sources a Oklohoma newspaper which boxrec does not use seems to synch up with the reports I had read a long time ago. Thx for the help. The fight date on boxrec is 8-21-24
The Long Count is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 10:21 AM   #36
klompton2
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,164
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

Greb won the majority of newspaper reports for the first Flowers fight by a margin of more than 2-1. The idea that Flowers won got a lot of play because Walk Miller, Flowers' manager collected those reports that said he won and sent them all over to news outlets in order to publicize Flowers, completely ignoring that many more had said Greb won. When Flowers' biography was commissioned by his wife not long after his death only reports stating that he defeated Greb were included in the description of the fight.
klompton2 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 05:14 PM   #37
Surf-Bat
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,123
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton2 View Post
Greb won the majority of newspaper reports for the first Flowers fight by a margin of more than 2-1. The idea that Flowers won got a lot of play because Walk Miller, Flowers' manager collected those reports that said he won and sent them all over to news outlets in order to publicize Flowers, completely ignoring that many more had said Greb won. When Flowers' biography was commissioned by his wife not long after his death only reports stating that he defeated Greb were included in the description of the fight.
Can you list the newspaper sources so I can correct that? Thanks!
Surf-Bat is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 05:52 PM   #38
The Long Count
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 992
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

Well I saw the Oklahomoan on Flowers page has it 8-2 Greb if that helps. If newspapers were more than 2-1 in margin of victory favoring Greb shouldn't boxrec change it from Draw to W for Greb?
The Long Count is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2013, 12:53 AM   #39
klompton2
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,164
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

The Oklahomoan was not present ringside which is one of the problems I have with just putting anything in boxrec, particularly from this era. Wire reports are often wildly inaccurate at worst, and give a skewed view of the proceedings at best.

Surf: There should be a tabulation of newspaper decisions in my book but to save you time here are the ringside decisions I have:

Flowers: Fremont Daily News, Toledo Blade, Toledo News-Bee, Akron Press, Columbus Citizen.

Walk Miller sent these reports all over to get Flowers press. They were parroted by syndicated columnists such as Frank Menke and Jim Corbett. These five articles appear in the biography commissioned by Flowers' wife.

Greb: Columbus Evening Dispatch, Fremont Daily Messenger, Toledo Times, Detroit News, Sandusky Star Journal, Pittsburgh Gazette-Times, Lorain Times, Tiffin Advertiser, Mansfield News, Pittsburgh Post, Fostoria Daily Review, Cleveland News, Findlay Morning Republican.

Draw: Sandusky Register, Grand Rapids Herald, Lima News, as well as the referee Eddie Kennedy and promoter Ray Bronson (a fine fighter in his day).

One thing I should note that I dont believe I mentioned in my book is that I have a published list of newspaper decisions for this fight which specifically names several newspapers and sportswriters ringside whose decisions could not be verified because the edition their account was found in is not microfilmed. Of these other sources (four or five if memory serves) only one voted for Flowers while the rest voted for Greb.

So, ignoring those newspaper decisions which I have been unable to verify we have 5 for Flowers, 13 for Greb, and 3 even. Had that been an official decision and those papers judges it would have been a clear cut victory for Greb and even clearer (a margin of 16 to 5) that Flowers DID NOT defeat Greb.
klompton2 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2013, 01:52 AM   #40
The Long Count
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 992
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

Wow very thorough in your research Klompton thank you for the breakdown. I appreciate it. So it does appear that Greb got the better of that fight by a large number of viewers. With all your research is their a reason why the fight on boxrec is ruled a draw and not a Win for Greb? Is it because the ref felt it a draw was appropiate? I'm just wondering how boxrec base their conclusions on fights from the newspaper era.
The Long Count is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2013, 10:21 AM   #41
klompton2
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,164
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Long Count View Post
Wow very thorough in your research Klompton thank you for the breakdown. I appreciate it. So it does appear that Greb got the better of that fight by a large number of viewers. With all your research is their a reason why the fight on boxrec is ruled a draw and not a Win for Greb? Is it because the ref felt it a draw was appropiate? I'm just wondering how boxrec base their conclusions on fights from the newspaper era.
Boxrec isnt infallible and is only as good as the research used to establish those decisions. You answered your own question when you quoted an Oklahoma newspaper as a source for the fight. If thats what Boxrec is using as a source then their decision needs to be taken with a pound of salt, not a grain.
klompton2 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 07:24 PM   #42
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Of

Have you so thoroughly reviewed Greb's record to determine that only 3 men of color ranked among Greb's opponents? And further could it possibly be that Irish, Germans and Italians proportionately dominted the sport as African Americans did in later decades? Upon which philosophy do you base that the landscape of the sport would be drastically different?

And I'm no stating that I disagree with you.
Black boxers/people weren't given a fair shot at any level in this era. If young black fighters aren't given fights at prospect level, aren't aloud to use the same gym facilities or are told to lose fights it's hardly a level playing field is it? Anyone who follows boxing knows you need a fair shake to get on in boxing. And a black boxer getting a fair shake in 1920s America is as likely as an all Jewish Nazi Party.

I'm not saying Greb ducked black fighters, he didn't but let's not pretend there was any type of equal playing field.
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2013, 12:36 AM   #43
klompton2
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,164
vCash: 500
Default Re: The Black Press Salutes Harry Greb in Death

Its as ignorant and borderline racist to say that ALL black fighters were held back in the 1920s as it is to apply broad generalizations to african americans based solely on their race. Is anyone going to tell me that Tiger Flowers didnt get the benefit of the doubt numerous times? Anyone who has researched his fights with Jack Delaney and Greb cant argue otherwise. Greb lost the only DQ of his career to a black fighter who many if not most felt was more deserving of the DQ loss. It happened in the same town that that same black fighter won a deserved decision over Billy Miske which halted Miske's march to a possible title. Wanna argue that the deck in those fights was somehow stacked against the black fighter? Hell, Greb got unjustly banned for the Norfolk fight in Boston along with Norfolk and yet Norfolk was allowed to fight in New York his very next fight, while supposedly under ban and the result: A DQ loss for the same tactics he was accused of against Greb. Meanwhile Greb's ban was enforced and resulted in the loss of one of the biggest purses of his career. Sounds like Norfolk got treated with kid gloves in that situation. People love to go on about how Sam Langford didnt win a title because he was black but completely ignore that white promoters in the USA, Canada, Mexico, Britain, and France were falling all over themselves trying to get him a title shot with Jack Johnson. Many of those promoters were the same ones who were responsible for getting him a match with Ketchel that was a stepping stone to a title shot. Its pretty pathetic and insulting to compare such examples to the possibility of "an all Jewish Nazi Party." African American fighters got shit on, no doubt about it, but lets not get ridiculous and start comparing the plight of African American fighters to Jews in Nazi Germany. Lets also not pretend that these guys didnt have access to proper facilities etc. Please. Anyone who does any research on this era will note immediately that often times they benefitted from great sparring, were constantly being seen mentioned in the papers as training at such facilities as Grupps, Stillmans, and the MSG gym (to name a few in New York alone). Go look at who was training these guys and where they were fighting even on the so-called chitlin circuit. Guys like Billy Haack in Memphis and Walk Miller in Atlanta were as good as the south got and those guys catered to black fighters and with such success that Young Stribling, a supposed darling of the KKK (if the Northern press is to be believed... which it isnt), went over to be guided Miller who made his name off of black fighters. How about Leo P. Flynn, one of the most powerful managers in the country who regularly worked with black fighters. Flynn was white btw. Id like specific examples of the times when Greb fought a black fighter like Blackburn, Willie Langford, Norfolk, Allentown Gans, Flowers, etc and the playing field was somehow in Greb's favor. In fact you could argue that against Blackburn, Norfolk, Flowers, and Gans there were significant advantages in favor of his opponent. Either way I'll go with the plaudits given Greb by the black press (the Pittsburgh Courier, in this case) which exhibited far more bias and downright racism than any white paper of the era I have ever read.
klompton2 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013