Julio Cesar Chavez greater than Joe Louis, yes?

[KuRuPT]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

Chavez is going to win the battle of statistics against nearly everybody because that's what his career was largely built on, a statistic.

It's not difficult to understand why he had more title fights than Louis considering that every high profile fight since the 1980's has been contested for some type of a title. Doesn't mean that the people contesting for it were anything close to being the best in the division.

Having a record of 12-3 against title holders in Louis's era was amazing (you only had one belt to contest for and only two different divisions that Louis could compete against), having a record of 17-4 against the likes of Sammy Fuentes and Lonnie Smith is fair enough but his record against men who were recognized as the best in their divisions at some point in time is definitely a lesser statistic.

Chavez's title reign was not continous and extremely questionable after 1993. Quite frankly he did not deserve to hold any kind of a belt from that point onwards.

Let's not act like Joe's competition was stellar during his title reign.. it wasn't... No fault of his own but it really wasn't.

[MMJoe]

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

What is the point? I'm saying you can't rate boxers by looking at the numbers alone.



For purposes of discussion we left out the latter part of Chavez's reign as he was no longer considered the top fighter in his division. Louis never had the option to make title defenses without being the top fighter in his division as there was only one person worthy of holding a title. The likes of Lonnie Smith were also rated 6 years prior to Chavez fighting them.

Either way there's no distinctive difference to be made. It's not an argument I originally made, I simply don't understand what the thread starter is getting at here. Chavez's number of title defenses against ranked contenders hardly puts Louis to shame and Chavez had 4 different divisions to choose opponents from.

Chavez 27 successful defenses, Louis only 16, because I say.

[zadfrak]

here is something for you to consider I don't think you have thought about yet.

In the early 90's, I spent about 3 hours talking to Al Braverman when he was the matchmaker for Don King Productions. Al was a guy you could talk to and sure swore a lot. And you also have to remember it was a different and easier time because there were multiple belts so a champion never faced the top 3 fighters in his division. Even if a guy fights the #1 contender, he is not fighting 3 other world champions in his same weight class.

Condensed and cleaned up, I spoke with Al about Chavez/Ruddock and then a few other guys. Al pointed out something very very simple--his job was to get Julio wins. Not losses and not tough fights, his job was to get the guy wins only. So there were numerous guys not on the Chavez opponent list and it was never ever a case of a Hagler who put his name on contracts and said to insert any opponent.

Braverman thought he was a good fighter alright but he also thought he had to do a real good job himself to continually find and scout the opponents Chavez could beat. He patted himself on the back with his matchmaking skills, but like he said you try and find the guy a bunch of easy title defenses. So Al had to be concerned about things like too many wars and his guy absorbing punishment and the continual wear and tear factor. He had to pick opponents that would not or could not do that.

He asked me if I thought anyone else anywhere could have done a better job than he did. I said no, and it was true---excellent excellent matchmaking in an era where that was possible.

Now, if Joe Louis had fought with 3 other belts available---just how do you think his matchmaking is with his great manager and great trainer?

[Flea Man]

Awesome post zadfrak. Never considered that before.

[FastHands(beeb)]

Originally Posted by Goodnite, Irene

I love it when people think Bum of the Month was meant literally.

It exposes all those little nasties who dont know anything about Boxing pre-1970.

...and who often rely on boxrec to prove their "arguments"

[The Mighty One]

Louis would knock out Chavez within 3 rounds.

[Andrei00]

Originally Posted by The Mighty One

Louis would knock out Chavez within 3 rounds.

End of thread.

[frankenfrank]

Bum of d month was bum of d munth 4eal regardless of what they meant it 2b back then , u idiots .

I think i'd rank Louis' opponents h2h (by d time that he fought them) like :
1. Buddy Baer
2. Abe Simon
3. Arnold Cream
4. Ezzard Charles
5. Jimmy Bivins
6. Lou Nova
7. Max Baer



..
..


d rest .


maybe places $4-#7 could have been mixed a bit differently .

It was in fact less than Kirk Johnson , Corey Sanders , Lance Whitaker , Hasim Rahman*2 , Robert Hawkins*2 , Jeff Wooden .

much much less .

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by zadfrak

here is something for you to consider I don't think you have thought about yet.

In the early 90's, I spent about 3 hours talking to Al Braverman when he was the matchmaker for Don King Productions. Al was a guy you could talk to and sure swore a lot. And you also have to remember it was a different and easier time because there were multiple belts so a champion never faced the top 3 fighters in his division. Even if a guy fights the #1 contender, he is not fighting 3 other world champions in his same weight class.

Condensed and cleaned up, I spoke with Al about Chavez/Ruddock and then a few other guys. Al pointed out something very very simple--his job was to get Julio wins. Not losses and not tough fights, his job was to get the guy wins only. So there were numerous guys not on the Chavez opponent list and it was never ever a case of a Hagler who put his name on contracts and said to insert any opponent.

Braverman thought he was a good fighter alright but he also thought he had to do a real good job himself to continually find and scout the opponents Chavez could beat. He patted himself on the back with his matchmaking skills, but like he said you try and find the guy a bunch of easy title defenses. So Al had to be concerned about things like too many wars and his guy absorbing punishment and the continual wear and tear factor. He had to pick opponents that would not or could not do that.

He asked me if I thought anyone else anywhere could have done a better job than he did. I said no, and it was true---excellent excellent matchmaking in an era where that was possible.

Now, if Joe Louis had fought with 3 other belts available---just how do you think his matchmaking is with his great manager and great trainer?

Possible and interesting, so who was Chavez actually kept away from though? They certainly went all in against Whitaker and Taylor so it certainly was 'win ratio'. Rosario and Ramirez were the best at LW bar Whitaker. Maybe McGirt at 140 could have happened and maybe an earlier fight with Camacho. Brian Mitchell at 130 would have been a good fight. How good were Pineda and Coggi at 140?

The Whitaker rematch and Randall rubber were obviously avoided. But overall Chavez fought most of the best of his era

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Possible and interesting, so who was Chavez actually kept away from though? They certainly went all in against Whitaker and Taylor so it certainly was 'win ratio'. Rosario and Ramirez were the best at LW bar Whitaker. Maybe McGirt at 140 could have happened and maybe an earlier fight with Camacho. Brian Mitchell at 130 would have been a good fight. How good were Pineda and Coggi at 140?

The Whitaker rematch and Randall rubber were obviously avoided. But overall Chavez fought most of the best of his era

I don't think Chavez went out of his way to fight either Whitaker or Camacho.

His choice to fight Roger Mayweather at 140 who he had already beaten and who Whitaker had dominated, rather than stay at 135 and face Whitaker, who he must have known beat Ramirez and got robbed seemed a bit of a duck to me. When he beat Rosario and Ramirez at lightweight he knew he hadn't beaten the division's best fighter.

Also could have made a fight with Camacho around 86 or again in the late 80's at 140, though in fairness to Chavez by that stage I don't think Hector was a better fighter than Roger.

Pineda was a better 140 fighter than Mayweather for mine. Roger was more skilled but Pineda was more a physical specimen and would have caused Chavez some issues with his physicality. Chavez would have won though, no doubt.

[KOTF]

No.

[Andrei00]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

I don't think Chavez went out of his way to fight either Whitaker or Camacho.

His choice to fight Roger Mayweather at 140 who he had already beaten and who Whitaker had dominated, rather than stay at 135 and face Whitaker, who he must have known beat Ramirez and got robbed seemed a bit of a duck to me. When he beat Rosario and Ramirez at lightweight he knew he hadn't beaten the division's best fighter.

Also could have made a fight with Camacho around 86 or again in the late 80's at 140, though in fairness to Chavez by that stage I don't think Hector was a better fighter than Roger.

Pineda was a better 140 fighter than Mayweather for mine. Roger was more skilled but Pineda was more a physical specimen and would have caused Chavez some issues with his physicality. Chavez would have won though, no doubt.

Well Sweet Pea moved from 135 directly to 147, to "fight better competition", I guess you could say that was his way of avoiding Julio.