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Old 09-23-2012, 08:11 AM   #181
dyna
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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imagin marciano trying to get inside on valuevs jab haha, then hold his weight up for 15 rounds when he gets leaned on haha.
Valuev is the proof how far size can get you.
Imagine if Marciano was as slow as Valuev...
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:54 AM   #182
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Valuev is the proof how far size can get you.
Imagine if Marciano was as slow as Valuev...
And even valuev was beaten by a crusierweight...
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:01 AM   #183
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And even valuev was beaten by a crusierweight...
Very nearly KO'd too.
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Old 09-23-2012, 11:26 AM   #184
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

Real question is how does Valuev hit Marciano? Rockys deep crouch would make Valuez stoop very low to even hit him with a jab. Would be an amazing fight to watch as Marciano cuts the mountain down and knocks him out.
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:15 PM   #185
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Haha, got kind of lost in all the excitemant i think.

My over all point is there are great short and tall heavyweights (of which marciano is one of them) and then there are great short and tall fighters who chose to become superheavyweights because it is the trend.

I dont think the SHW division exists on its own. I dont think the SHW ideal is an improvement. and I dont think SHW's automaticaly beat great smaller sized heavyweights just because they are encumbered with artificial weight since so much of their existance depends on facing other encumbered artificial SHW's of less ability.

It still depends on the fighter. You do have some big guys like Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tucker, and some others that were 6'5 guys but weren't 240 like Wlad and Lennox became. But Yes, both Wlad and Lennox have fought at 220+ in the early part.
And those versions of themselves may have been easier for someone like Tyson to fight and take out but if the weight can make the difference, why not gain it. Maybe it's down to your "potential" weight.


Lewis did bulk up and so did Wlad and Vitali. So I get that point. These "Super-HWs" are filling out their body's to gain an advantage. Or is it really just down to reaching their "potential" physically?

And on that note, going back to style, weight, and intelligence from a previous post:
Lennox and Wlad have similar styles and strategic plans. They fight behind the Jab to control the pace. If you get by the Jab, they use the clinch to slow down the pace as well as tire you out. If the extra weight is helping them be stronger and be better; then why not do it?
If it doesn't work, you adjust. That's something George Foreman should have learned early in life as far as how to properly "box" and "fight."
He didn't burn himself out in the second part of his career despite his "Husky" appearance.

As far as fighting them and if it can become a disadvantage to be heavier than maybe what they should be:
I do think if you can force them out of their controlled pace, it's possible to tire them out quicker but only if they have to much weight on them. So it depends on who we are talking about and how much weight they have put on.
When in shape and when in his prime, Lewis was forced out of his controlled pace and put up a great fight against Mercer. Mercer wasn't some small HW and was a bit over his normal fighting weight, true, but Lewis did show ability to fight at a pace faster than his normal. It wasn't non-stop but how many fights are.
And of course Wlad has shown at any weight he has been at that he can punch himself out. But that happens when you are throwing with full force with your punches. Again, like Holmes said, stay relaxed, and you don't need to hit HRs all the time. Which Wlad learned. Wlad is actually a guy that loses weight when he is not fighting and bulks up for his fights...so I agree that he is not some natural 240+ pound Fighter. He uses weight/strength to his advantage.

Tua vs. Ike was a great fight between to heavier sized opponents. The amount of punches they threw, specifically power punches thrown and landed, was incredible.


Some can hold on to weight better than others. And it depends on how much weight you gain. As well as the strategy you implore and opponent you are dealing with. But overall, I think I get your points. Fighters are bulking up. But I would say it depends on how much they are bulking up. If they are reaching their "potential" weight, it's good; but if they are going past that and adding weight they normally couldn't keep without overeating, then it may be bad.


There are always advantages and disadvantages in this sport.

As far as Marciano and some of the smaller HW's of the past that were under 200 pounds:
I wouldn't bet on Marciano beating a lot of these 200+ pound fighters. But he was still a Great under 200 pound fighter. And that's even if it was 15 rounds.

There is so much involved with stamina and pace and it varies depending on the opponent and fight.
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Old 09-23-2012, 06:40 PM   #186
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
It still depends on the fighter. You do have some big guys like Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tucker, and some others that were 6'5 guys but weren't 240 like Wlad and Lennox became. But Yes, both Wlad and Lennox have fought at 220+ in the early part.
And those versions of themselves may have been easier for someone like Tyson to fight and take out but if the weight can make the difference, why not gain it. Maybe it's down to your "potential" weight..
Did the weight make the difference? Do you think a 240lb Tucker would beat Tyson or would a 240 tucker just be slower? Did Tyson lose to Lewis because he was so much heavier or because Tyson was so past his best?
[
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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
Lewis did bulk up and so did Wlad and Vitali. So I get that point. These "Super-HWs" are filling out their body's to gain an advantage. Or is it really just down to reaching their "potential" physically?
The potential is found Whena fighter can beat the elite. If he fights in an era of artificial weight so be it. What ever weight is successful then that is the weight to be. Natural has nothing to do with it. However, when comparisons are made with past eras we must factor natural weight to conclude a winner, not fighting weight when artificial weight is an issue. In fantasy fights artificial weight must be taken into account.
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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
And on that note, going back to style, weight, and intelligence from a previous post:
Lennox and Wlad have similar styles and strategic plans. They fight behind the Jab to control the pace. If you get by the Jab, they use the clinch to slow down the pace as well as tire you out. If the extra weight is helping them be stronger and be better; then why not do it? .
This is an effective game plan today but would not work against great fighters. Superheavyweights depend on being bigger and being against less experienced fighters of less ability in order to win. A more experienced, seasoned fighter would not allow a slower man to dictate the pace regardless of how he outreached him. The smaller man can out foot him and beat him to the punch and outwork him.
 
 
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it doesn't work, you adjust. That's something George Foreman should have learned early in life as far as how to properly "box" and "fight."
He didn't burn himself out in the second part of his career despite his "Husky" appearance..
H edid not burn himself out because he was not under enough presure. Old foreman was selective about whom he fought.

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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
far as fighting them and if it can become a disadvantage to be heavier than maybe what they should be:
I do think if you can force them out of their controlled pace, it's possible to tire them out quicker but only if they have to much weight on them. So it depends on who we are talking about and how much weight they have put on.
When in shape and when in his prime, Lewis was forced out of his controlled pace and put up a great fight against Mercer. Mercer wasn't some small HW and was a bit over his normal fighting weight, true, but Lewis did show ability to fight at a pace faster than his normal. It wasn't non-stop but how many fights are..
Lweis was lucky mercer needed to rest so often, it allowed Lewis to get back into the fight and vice versa. Aiaf both were 20lb lighter it would have been a better fight.
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And of course Wlad has shown at any weight he has been at that he can punch himself out. But that happens when you are throwing with full force with your punches. .
why? This is an excuse!!! Great fighters should train to fight three full rounds even if it mens being lighter than their opponent! If wlad punched himself out it is because all the eggs were in the wrong basket! If he were lighter, he would have been able to meet the tempo that Brewster and sanders set.
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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
But overall, I think I get your points. Fighters are bulking up. But I would say it depends on how much they are bulking up. If they are reaching their "potential" weight, it's good; but if they are going past that and adding weight they normally couldn't keep without overeating, then it may be bad.
There are always advantages and disadvantages in this sport. .
Ther did not used to be. There was a time wher a guy trained to fight 3 minuet rounds. He made sure he could fight for full rounds. Thatís gone now. fghts are not better than they used to be.
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Old 09-23-2012, 07:44 PM   #187
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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choklab;13852084]Did the weight make the difference? Do you think a 240lb Tucker would beat Tyson or would a 240 tucker just be slower? Did Tyson lose to Lewis because he was so much heavier or because Tyson was so past his best?
You make a Great point and it was something I was thinking about with Ali. Comparing his 60's career with later on. He got bigger in the 70's and I do think it helped him to absorb punishment but I do think he would have rather been lighter and had that ability to move like he once did. Who wouldn't.

Adding weight has its advantages: Increased Strength, increased cushion to absorb punishment, and a weapon to use to lean on the opponent to wear them down. But with the extra weight also can come some negatives: Possible slower speed, decrease of endurance when trying to move around and even when forced out of your normal pace, you can wear down faster.

Tucker would certainly be slower. If he were 240, he would have to fight behind the Jab and then clinch Tyson on the way in (which he did) and then lean on him with that extra 20 pounds. But to your point, if he were 20 pounds heavier, he wouldn't' be able to move as fast nor be as agile for the full fight and that makes him a mark against someone like Tyson. Where he was able to avoid the bombs by Tyson because he was moving and pulling away, he would be right there to be hit if Tyson were to time him which he did at moments, especially with his Jab (which was remarkable).
And those that stood in front of Tyson, either had to stand and fight him like Ruddock or go into survival mode like James Smith did. You find out that someone like Tyson may be smaller, but the F***ker was fast and threw in combinations so not letting him set up for those fast combinations is better. When he became more of a one punch at a time type person or even just the one, two...it wasn't as difficult to Fight him but you were still there for him to hit.

Joe Louis would have had a much harder time against someone like the version of Tucker Tyson fought than someone like Buddy Baer and Abe Simon who were there to be hit. Joe Louis was a Destroyer when you stood in front of him and were slower than him.

Moving on to Lennox. When he fought Mercer, he too had to stand his ground and if you look at the fight, he was getting hammered in close and had to take breathers. The weight I think certainly helped him absorb those shots. Something I'm not quite sure he would have been able to do at 220+ quite the way he did. Take them? Yes. But at that level and for that long? I'm not as sure.
But if he were lighter, you could argue he wouldn't have had to take those shots because he could have moved and possibly had the stamina to do it.
I would have to go back and rewatch his fights before I conclude my answer on his overall ability when lighter.


At the weight Tucker was for Tyson, he was fast and agile. He wasn't the normal Big Man like back in the day either; he was the new breed of Athletic Big Men who were faster and agile and actually had skill to back it up.

So your point would also move us on to Douglas as well. He was up and down in his weight. When he was on top of his game, when he was in shape at 230, he was fast and agile and was harder to fight. He was Basketball Player and brought that athleticism into boxing. Again, not your normal Big Man we were used to seeing. A New Breed of HW who was fast, agile, and could move around and had the endurance to do it when in shape.
And although he wasn't bulking up to put on that weight extra weight to get above 230, unless you count lifting a box of donuts, I don't think even if it was muscle it would have helped his agility and stamina.





Edit...finished the rest down below

Last edited by Caelum; 09-23-2012 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:20 PM   #188
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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The potential is found Whena fighter can beat the elite. If he fights in an era of artificial weight so be it. What ever weight is successful then that is the weight to be. Natural has nothing to do with it. However, when comparisons are made with past eras we must factor natural weight to conclude a winner, not fighting weight when artificial weight is an issue. In fantasy fights artificial weight must be taken into account.
What is "artificial weight"?

Was Ezzard Charles moving up from 160 to 190+ pounds artificial weight?

Was Archie Moore moving up from 150+ to 200 pounds artificial weight?
And remember, Archie was a Master at Weight Manipulation.

How about Floyd Patterson who was a MW in the Olympics and purposefully built his body up to fight at HW.

How about all the others in that era or any era that started lower?

In a "fantasy fight," you take them at their best "usually." If you want to make it specific with years, you can do that too. But if it is a "Peak vs. Peak" fantasy fight...you take them at their absolute best.



Quote:
This is an effective game plan today but would not work against great fighters. Superheavyweights depend on being bigger and being against less experienced fighters of less ability in order to win. A more experienced, seasoned fighter would not allow a slower man to dictate the pace regardless of how he outreached him. The smaller man can out foot him and beat him to the punch and outwork him.
First, tell everyone below the HW division to move up and try to defeat Wlad. If they thought they could win they would do it. Not many try it and it isn't exactly like Wlad is young anymore.


This is Boxing. It has always been done like this with strategy. Wlad/Lennox didn't rewrite the book on boxing. Lennox and Wlad got this from their Old School Trainer, Emanuel Steward.

Do you know when Floyd Mayweather has his best/easiest fights?
When he fights behind the Jab.
He makes things harder for himself when he doesn't.
Of course I'm being specific to later in his career because when he was at his absolute physical best, he was so fast and agile he could be in and out and not have to rely on his Jab. But when he did he toyed with fighters.

Have you ever watched a Jack Johnson fight?
Clinching was an art-form with Jack.

Many fights back then included Jabbing and Grappling.

It's not simple to get by the Jab. Especially when the Man using it has a Good Jab with a long reach.
It can be done but it is not simple and it can becomes harder when there is a size discrepancy. But if you are shorter, you can do things to sway things your way but you better have the skill to do it.

So we will use Tyson: When he stopped training the way he used to train, he became more of a sitting duck and would absorb punishment because of it.
But when he trained for it, he used his own Jab and would time his Larger Opponent and land his own. You can Jab with a "Jabber."
He would also bob-weave his way in and unload which had the bigger Man forcing the clinch if they couldn't get out of the way.
He also was shown to be able to lure you in, make you miss by the way he ducked down and pulled back...and then unloaded a bomb.

But Tyson also had the foot-speed and upper-body-movement to do it. How many have we seen in history have such foot speed and overall speed as Tyson?

And when a fighter has more to his arsenal than just the jab...like Jab, Move, Clinch...it becomes even harder. And each second adds up.

Marciano himself showed trouble when he fought Joe Louis because of Louis's Jab. And at that point, Louis was slow and past it.

Quote:
H edid not burn himself out because he was not under enough presure. Old foreman was selective about whom he fought.
What about Evander Holyfield?

And don't bring up size either since this is a Marciano thread and remember, we are talking about the HW division which varies in the size of the opponent.

Holyfield was a HW Champion. He was in George's division.

Holyfield was a pure fighter. He could up the pace when need be an he had a great offensive arsenal.


Quote:
Lweis was lucky mercer needed to rest so often, it allowed Lewis to get back into the fight and vice versa. Aiaf both were 20lb lighter it would have been a better fight.
why? This is an excuse!!! Great fighters should train to fight three full rounds even if it mens being lighter than their opponent! If wlad punched himself out it is because all the eggs were in the wrong basket! If he were lighter, he would have been able to meet the tempo that Brewster and sanders set.
Fighting such a big guy can take quite the toll on you...specifically when that Big Guy is Lennox Lewis who is 6'5, 230+, STRONG, and Powerful.

Each time he leans on you, it takes away from your gas-tank. Each time he lands a bomb on you, it takes away from your gas-tank. Each time he Jabs and you have to try to avoid it, it takes away from your gas-tank.



Wlad, at 225, wore out against Purrity as well. Again, it's hard to continually throw so many shots at such power for the full fight no matter who you are. Add in the size of Wlad, and it can become even harder.

The other things that bothered Wlad in his fight with Brewster was BREWSTER. He wrecked Wlad with a Hard Left that had Wlad holding on. You don't know what that could have done to his stamina since the heart-rate, when hurt, can race if you are unable to control your mind/body. If that Adrenaline kicks into high gear, you burn out.
Just being hit by someone the size of Brewster can wear you out. Just hitting Brewster can wear you out.

You can't compare a 5'11, 185 pound guy with a HW the size of Wlad. Smaller guys should have better stamina.
I don't see to many 6'5, 220+ pound marathon runners winning races.



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Ther did not used to be. There was a time wher a guy trained to fight 3 minuet rounds. He made sure he could fight for full rounds. That’s gone now. fghts are not better than they used to be.
Even if you train hard, EVERYONE has their limit. Not everyone is built to run a marathon at the speed of a Kenyan. Each come in at different times based on their max ability. Just because someone is 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes, etc. behind the leader doesn't mean that person didn't train as hard. It could simply mean that person doesn't have the same capability.

When it comes to boxing, you do things that enable you to make the opponent fight at your pace. We've seen this time and time again with fighters like Floyd Mayweather who can prevent people from fighting their fight. The opponent may be used to fighting at a faster pace but Floyd makes them eventually fight at his. You can manipulate someone Mentally and Physically through technical means to make this so.

For example: What made Tyson slow down his opponents and break them down Mentally and Physically?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPAIFzsyqXo[/ame]

That's the Mental part.



Jabbing, Clinching, Moving...all help.

Stamina:

A Guy that is 6'5, 220+, it can become a lot harder than someone that is 5'11, 185 pounds to fight at a very fast pace so he does what he has to in order to slow down the pace.

What Tua and Ike did was incredible. What Holyfield and Bowe did was incredible. But it also took its toll and it was hard to repeat it.




Rocky Marciano wasn't non-stop puncher either. If I can watch his fights and deduct every second from each round that he isn't throwing, then he isn't a "non-stop puncher"






_____

Last edited by Caelum; 09-23-2012 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 09-23-2012, 11:10 PM   #189
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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And even valuev was beaten by a crusierweight...
Not on my card.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:01 AM   #190
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Real question is how does Valuev hit Marciano? Rockys deep crouch would make Valuez stoop very low to even hit him with a jab. Would be an amazing fight to watch as Marciano cuts the mountain down and knocks him out.
Marciano was quite good at neutralizing jabs, by leaning back to the right, and keeping his right hand infront of his chin all he needed to do was lift his hand a few inches and the punch has missed him. Against Valuev, Marciano will find infront of him an enourmous target and a big gut always in punchig range. He'd turn Valuev's internal organs into mush.
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Old 09-25-2012, 03:25 AM   #191
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post

A Guy that is 6'5, 220+, it can become a lot harder than someone that is 5'11, 185 pounds to fight at a very fast pace so he does what he has to in order to slow down the pace.








_____
A fighter always has to do what it takes. often if the smaller guy is very good the bigger guy takes some of that artificial weight off so that he is less of a sitting duck and vice versa. They are not weakening themselves because much of their size is built up. If lennox lewis was 221, Bowe 218, larry Holmes 207 and Ali 201 for selected fights what does it say for all the extra weight?
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:54 AM   #192
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A fighter always has to do what it takes. often if the smaller guy is very good the bigger guy takes some of that artificial weight off so that he is less of a sitting duck and vice versa. They are not weakening themselves because much of their size is built up. If lennox lewis was 221, Bowe 218, larry Holmes 207 and Ali 201 for selected fights what does it say for all the extra weight?
Weight is based on a fight by fight basis?

Your overall point is that the Super-HW division is just guys bulking up?
Could be for the most part.

what's the natural weight for HWs?

All HWs are not equal in natural build.

But it would be interesting to see the difference in training from the Old Timers to fighters of today.

I don't think it is always down to the number of rounds since fighters can just pace themselves. It will be more about the athlete that trains and sets the bar and the others have to compete against that so they train hard to compete.


And since this is a Rocky thread, what's the correlation with Marciano in all this?

Do you think he can compete with the 200+ pound fighters...especially the Big Men that are 220+ (when they limit their diet to be so)?

Last edited by Caelum; 09-25-2012 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:03 PM   #193
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano

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Weight is based on a fight by fight basis?
Your overall point is that the Super-HW division is just guys bulking up?
Could be for the most part.
I think modern “training” has diluted the distinction between what was the classic sized heavyweight and a regular giant. Weight is based on the weight of the elite fighters of the time, when elite fighters favour speed over size a new “best fighting weight” will be established again.
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what's the natural weight for HWs?
All HWs are not equal in natural build.
But it would be interesting to see the difference in training from the Old Timers to fighters of today.
The majority of modern super heavyweights could make the 190-220lb braket that the true giants cannot.
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I don't think it is always down to the number of rounds since fighters can just pace themselves. It will be more about the athlete that trains and sets the bar and the others have to compete against that so they train hard to compete.
This is true. Once all the heavyweights get tired after 40 seconds of moving their arms each round becomes a game of working whilst the other guy rests, nobody out paces the other guy. Nobody needs to! Why else are there so many 40 year old contenders? When heavyweight boxing was a more athletic division 34 was old.
Hevayweights are not bigger they are just heavier. There has been an obssesion with weight and power in recent years. Emphasis was always on fitnes and technique. Ali set the 200lb plus bar. I think the division was wrong to follow his size because Ali was an exception to the rule. Sumo elements, leaning and stalling tactics came in because once heavyweights stopped coming down to a leaner weight they resorted to using the bulk itself as a weapon. It wouldn’t work against a fitter faster breed of heavyweight, some of which still matched them for strength.
 
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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
And since this is a Rocky thread, what's the correlation with Marciano in all this?
Do you think he can compete with the 200+ pound fighters...especially the Big Men that are 220+ (when they limit their diet to be so)?
The Klit brothers would not need to limit their diets, they would just have to follow a traditional 1940s 1960s training and diet programe. They would still be strong fighters but they would be 30 or so pounds lighter. Could Marciano fight them? yes he could.
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