Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

[ETM]

Originally Posted by choklab

I never saw anyone land a double jab on Marciano. After the first jab landed he was in the other mans face throwing shots and landing himself.

Joe Louis was able to score with that jab against Marciano. He even had Rocks eye starting to close a little by the 8th. Ofcourse difference being that Joe had nothing to follow it up with. He was one handed and shot by `51.

Sonny Liston had an uncommon jab. It carried significant power and if Marciano catches that jab clean its going to stop him in his tracks. It could even stun him on the way in. Not to mention the damage he could do to his face.

[SuzieQ49]

He was one handed and shot by `51.

One handed eh? This video evidence shows you couldn't be more wrong

This fight took place in January of 1950

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Care to retract your statement?

[SuzieQ49]

Ofcourse difference being that Joe had nothing to follow it up with.

O yeah, real pitter patter punches right here
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[SuzieQ49]

Mcgrain,

I like Liston on points. Marciano is too durable to get knocked out, and Liston was a very scientific boxer, with a tremendous jab, and a good workrate. Combine that with his superior strength, physical tools, he outpoints Marciano.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by Sister Sledge

I thought Rocky was 5'10 1/2" and Sony was 6'1 1/2"?

No. in truth you are giving Liston an inch he did not have and taking half an inch off Rocky.

Liston was 6' 0 and a half inch.

Marciano was 5'11.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by Caelum

　
Not always. Sometimes he would be stopped in his tracks and regroup. Even have to pull back. Louis gave him trouble when he was fresh (for that point in this career). I've always wondered what a Prime Louis would do with his Jab..

90% of the time Marciano neutralised jabs. Ali himself found a middle aged rocky har to nail with his own expert jab. A faster jab than Listons.
Marciano worked well off the other mans jab. Often Rocky’s feet were in range but his head was not, marciano would lure them forward so they could step in with a jab just so he could counter it.

Originally Posted by Caelum

　As far as the double Jab, maybe this is an example:
Start at 4:53 so you don't miss it.

Yes this is great footage! But this is not a marching forward “kick ass” Liston double jab. This is Archie moore at the edge of range looking to change directon and find space. Im not sure both landed, it was more to blind rocky momentarily so he could reposition. Later Moore even used a treble jab only because he found the right footing and angle with clever feints and shifty parrys. Sonny used one angle -straight at you. It was a slower jab with everything on it as he marched in.
　

Originally Posted by Caelum

　On the other hand, we can also see that Rocky's defense is still good here and in other fights. He makes fighters miss and doesn't rely on his face to block like some think.
I would like to point out that I am just dissecting the discussion and it by no means is meant to diss Rocky. Great Fighter. But some of the talk with him, or any fighter for that matter, can be a bit exaggerated. I may sometimes do it to and that's why it's good to have someone counter.

Much appreciated! I agree some people get carried away. However, on getting up against archie Moore rocky used a master class of defence coming forward. Slipping and rolling, without punching back or intentionally clinching Rocky crowded Moore’s footing preventing him from getting set for the finishing attack he wanted. Moore does penetrate some of rockys clumsy elbow/shoulder crab defence but only with grazing blows. Rocky knew what he was doing whilst hurt against an expert KO king like Moore. There was over 2 mins of the round left and he neutralised one of historys finest finishers.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by choklab

I never saw anyone land a double jab on Marciano. After the first jab landed he was in the other mans face throwing shots and landing himself.
　

If you look at Marcianos footing and stance from the outside as he was closing range he was almost entirely side on. A lead uppercut would not work because the head is behind the forward facing left shoulder and in front of the oposite right shoulder above his back foot. An uppercut would only work inside. If he can find room.

Maybe, also a chance rocky being lower with that wide footing with neutralise this though?


Only if you look at it from one angle. This is a close, hard fight tougher than a fight Liston actually won.
　

There is only one inch in height but like you say a lot of reach disparity. This can only factor if Liston can make that reach count and do something he never did and get up on his toes and turn into Tokyo Douglas. At long range I never saw anyone hurt Marciano at his championship best from the outside because of his low, crowding from a side on stance. Long shots from outside only ever seemed to graze Rocky‘s crab like tangle of shoulders and elbows. Often Marciano’s feet would be in range but his head would not. This drew opponents closer to him and within Marciano’s punch radius. I think rocky gets do do what he wants to do and Liston cant do what he wants to do.

well said or written, all good points

[Mendoza]

On skills and physical ability, it’s Liston by a clear margin. In terms of heart, and grit, it’s Marciano by clear margin. The questions you have to ask yourself if this.

Could Marciano get past Liston’s jab? Not easily.

Would Liston cut Marciano up? Likely.

How many sledgehammer crosses or hooks could Marciano take from Liston? Not too many

If it came down to points, who is the likely winner? I think Liston.

If you’re picking Marciano, I think you are thinking a stoppage win or Liston getting DQ’d/quitting.

Rocky could hit, but it took him on average a tad over 9 rounds to win his title matches. And the likes of Charles, Moore, and Walcott were far easier to hurt in comparison to Liston. I think Rocky once said he would not relish the opportunity to share the same ring with Liston. I would go with Liston here via mid to late round TKO in a 15 round affair. Rocky could only fight one way, and that was by confronting his opposition. That type of style for the smaller man is the wrong way to fight Liston.

[dpw417]

This is the one fight I can't even make a pick on...

[he grant]

THis is a terrible fight for Marciano who would get busted up badly before he got stopped. Styles are everything and Sonny, bigger, stronger, with a huge reach advantage, a jack hammer jab and equal to Rocky in power would do a number on him .. he'd cut him up, swell him up and stop him ...

[RockyJim]

Took too many punches?,,,The Rock wasn't as easy to hit as people think...

[he grant]

Originally Posted by RockyJim

Took too many punches?,,,The Rock wasn't as easy to hit as people think...

His defense is indeed under rated by many who simply assume he was another face first white guy when in reality considering his size and style he was not easy to hit at all ...

[choklab]

Originally Posted by he grant

THis is a terrible fight for Marciano who would get busted up badly before he got stopped. Styles are everything and Sonny, bigger, stronger, with a huge reach advantage, a jack hammer jab and equal to Rocky in power would do a number on him .. he'd cut him up, swell him up and stop him ...

This is too short of an answer. It is never that simple when two great fighters meet.

The only thing I agree with is that styles are everything - marciano's style would be far too awkward and unconventional for Sonny.

If it were this simple Liston never would have lost a fight and rocky would have been no better than the rest of Listons more conventional, less equipped hapless victims who were cut up, busted up, swelled up etc etc... This wont happen to marciano. He was a lot better than those guys.

Marciano was a great fighter. its not going to be simple. Rocky is NOT the ripe Joe Frazier George Foreman got at just the right time.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Could Marciano get past Liston’s jab? Not easily

Marciano will get past 90% of Listons jabs because he got past 90% of everyone’s jabs. If it misses rocky counters. If sonnys jab lands rocky still lands. Rocky’s whole style was about neutralising and countering jabs because of his own short reach. Sonnys jab was no “stay away” range finder. Rocky would in fact relish Sonnys type of jab because it brings Liston forward onto what Marciano has planned. Listons jab (even when it missed) was thrown like a power shot. he came all the way in with it. Right into the pocket of where Rocky wants him.

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Would Liston cut Marciano up? Likely.

In title fights Rocky did not get cut against Walcott in the rematch or against Lastarza, Moore or Cockell that’s half the title fights he had. Liston marked up as many times in competitive fights as Rocky did. How many times was sonny matched competatively? Sonny fought only two men for the title and was cut by one of them -Ali.
　

Originally Posted by Mendoza

How many sledgehammer crosses or hooks could Marciano take from Liston? Not too many

If Liston has the space and time to launch his bombs he is a danger to anyone, but will Rocky allow him that much space and time? I think what you are saying depends on what Marciano lets Sonny do. I don’t see Rocky freezing like Roy Harris or Albert westphall. Marciano has a better chin than machen who went 12 rounds with Liston but only one against ingo.

Originally Posted by Mendoza

If it came down to points, who is the likely winner? I think Liston.

If things go his way. If they don’t what then? What history of Liston coming from behind to win against a great fighter is there?
　

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Rocky could hit, but it took him on average a tad over 9 rounds to win his title matches. And the likes of Charles, Moore, and Walcott were far easier to hurt in comparison to Liston.

Charles and moore got past bob Satterfield - Cleveland Williams did not. If they were easier to hurt than Liston then how come they got past the man who flattened the hardest puncher Liston ever fought? Charles, Walcott and Archie Moore fought a lot more elite, currently rated HW contenders than Liston ever did. Listons entire roster of rated opponents were Harris, machen, Foley, Patterson, Clay and Martin. That’s it. Two of them did not want to fight and another two stopped Liston. Its not that good a ratio and way behind Walcott, Moore and Charles. The men who stopped Walcott, Moore and Charles hit a whole lot harder than leotis martin and cassius clay.
　
　

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Rocky could only fight one way, and that was by confronting his opposition. That type of style for the smaller man is the wrong way to fight Liston.

Only if the smaller man is battle tired and at the end of a reign and his name is joe Frazier when he fought george foreman. Otherwise if the smaller man is pin point prime, has the edge in seasoning, heart, experience and has a 100% consistency record against elite heavyweights then the other man better watch out.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by choklab

Marciano will get past 90% of Listons jabs because he got past 90% of everyone’s jabs.

Larry Holmes named Sonny Liston the best jabber in HW history. This, alone, illustrates the threadbare logic you are employing here. The only jab Rocky fast that was comparable to Liston's was Ezzard's. Charles had lost a lot of his speed by that time (sorry, it's just true, he was still special but he was slower). The difference in reach between Charles and Liston? Eleven inches.

You hear people say this sort of thing all the time. It's usually about their favourite fighter taking punches, right before their favourite fighter gets KO'd. You have absolutely nothing to go on here. The notion that Liston is repeatedly countered on his jab is based upon what? Almost nobody ever did it aside from Ali, a lightning fast mover with literally less in common with Marciano than every other fight who has ever boxed.

There is also no precedent (Ever? By any fighter in any fight in history?) for Rocky countering on a 17" reach disparity.

That's seventeen inches, recorded. That's a foot-and-a-half.

The notion that he would slip 90% of these jabs is...an absolutely exceptional presumption. The notion that he would counter even a handful is also presuming plenty.

The notion that Rocky will hit Sonny Liston every time he throws a jab:

If it misses rocky counters. If sonnys jab lands rocky still lands.

May be the single most preposterous piece of "technical analysis" I have ever read on this forum.

If it wasn't for the fact that this is the fourth or fifth time i've seen you make this ludicrous claim, I wouldn't even have bothered to reply.