Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

[luke]

Originally Posted by Caelum

I don't know what the deal was in the second fight with Ali but some would say you have to factor in the possibility that Liston didn't see the punch coming because of the speed and angle it was thrown/placed and the punch you don't see, is the punch that does the most damage.

Now if that was the case...I don't know. Shady times and it had most people scratching their head.


But I agree; Rocky didn't face someone with the overall size and skill of Liston. And Liston would be his toughest challenge.




Good Fight.

i know its cliche, but the punches you dont see comming are the ones that hurt the most, i think the ali kd of liston in the second fight is legit.

rockys never been in the ring with anyone like liston.. the only way rocky beats liston is if he can crumble his soul, its a high possibility, but rocky was 15 inches of reach worse off vs liston and liston would weigh just north of 210 and be pritty solid in his prime, the thing with liston is, he was fast, but people dont see it because the only fights of him they see are the ones vs ali with alis blistering speed, also liston had some good technical ability. i would give liston the win by stoppage. he could really fuck you up, i have a photo of him vs wepner, wepners face looks like a horror film.

cheers.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Larry Holmes named Sonny Liston the best jabber in HW history. This, alone, illustrates the threadbare logic you are employing here.

I have threadbare logic because Larry Holmes says Liston (who he never met) was the best jabber in history?
Did or did not Muhammad ali say a middle age Rocky Marciano was hard to hit with a jab?
Liston had a great HARD jab. Ali had a faster more accurate jab than Liston.
If Ali (who not only met Marciano but did friendly sparring with Marciano) who as you say yourself repeatedly countered Liston says Rocky is hard to hit with the jab why is it thread bare logic to agree? If Ali had trouble jabbing Marciano anybody would have trouble jabbing Rocky. This would include Liston.
　
　
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

The notion that he would slip 90% of these jabs is...an absolutely exceptional presumption.
.

Because Ali did not know what he was talking about? Or because you find it absolutely exceptional that it is not what you want to hear?

Originally Posted by McGrain

The notion that Liston is repeatedly countered on his jab is based upon what? Almost nobody ever did it aside from Ali,

Yet Ali found Marciano hard to hit with the jab. .Marciano countered wallcot, he countered great fighters why cant he (if he is hard to hit with a jab) counter Liston when the man drives forward like liston does?
　

[rusak]

Originally Posted by choklab

I have threadbare logic because Larry Holmes says Liston (who he never met) was the best jabber in history?
Did or did not Muhammad ali say a middle age Rocky Marciano was hard to hit with a jab?
Liston had a great HARD jab. Ali had a faster more accurate jab than Liston.
If Ali (who not only met Marciano but did friendly sparring with Marciano) who as you say yourself repeatedly countered Liston says Rocky is hard to hit with the jab why is it thread bare logic to agree? If Ali had trouble jabbing Marciano anybody would have trouble jabbing Rocky. This would include Liston.
　
　
　

Because Ali did not know what he was talking about? Or because you find it absolutely exceptional that it is not what you want to hear?

Yet Ali found Marciano hard to hit with the jab. .Marciano countered wallcot, he countered great fighters why cant he (if he is hard to hit with a jab) counter Liston when the man drives forward like liston does?
　

Ali's style is very different from Liston's in terms of the jab. Ali tried to jab you and stay outside. He wanted you to follow him around and walk into his jab. Liston would try to walk you down with the jab.

A shot Louis didn't have too much trouble finding Marciano with his jab, even though it looked like it was in slow motion. And Louis had nothing else in that fight. Liston's jab would have been much harder and more effective, and he'd be able to follow it up with power punches.

[PetethePrince]

Liston is like most big bullies, if you can stay away and make him miss for a few rounds he'll get frustrated. Once you strip away that feeling of invincibility, he can be had.

Rocky Marciano

[TheSouthpaw]

Marciano would obviously find a way to frustrate Liston..And despite the size difference I guarantee Liston has never been hit as hard as Rocky would hit him..Eventually there would be a stand off in the midde of the ring and I see Liston goin down...No way he gets away with trading with Marciano..I say Marciano By KO between the 8th and 12th rounds..( assuming were goin 15 rounds here )....And My lovely Girlfriend who is in love with Marciano agrees with me!!

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by TheSouthpaw

And My lovely Girlfriend who is in love with Marciano agrees with me!!

Sounds like you've found a special one.

[ETM]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Liston is like most big bullies, if you can stay away and make him miss for a few rounds he'll get frustrated

Thats not Marciano`s game. He going to be there to be hit. Liston isnt quitting against a guy that is walking into his wheelhouse. Its wishful thinking.

[rusak]

Originally Posted by ETM

Thats not Marciano`s game. He going to be there to be hit. Liston isnt quitting against a guy that is walking into his wheelhouse. Its wishful thinking.

It's nuthuggery.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by ETM

Thats not Marciano`s game. He going to be there to be hit. Liston isnt quitting against a guy that is walking into his wheelhouse. Its wishful thinking.

I kinda have to agree with this. Marciano wouldn't exactly frustrate Liston with elusiveness or quickness. Sonny's eyes would be bigger than saucers seeing Marciano advance. And this whole bully notion is way exaggerated. You have an awful toll to pay to expose this bully...

[KidDynamite]

Liston bombs him out in the mddle rounds

Marciano comes forward, a huge stylistic advantage for Liston

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by ETM

Thats not Marciano`s game. He going to be there to be hit. Liston isnt quitting against a guy that is walking into his wheelhouse. Its wishful thinking.

Of course. Never said it was. Point is Marciano believed Liston was a bully that wasn't invincible. Ali basically proved his prediction completely true.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by ETM

Thats not Marciano`s game. He going to be there to be hit. Liston isnt quitting against a guy that is walking into his wheelhouse. Its wishful thinking.

Have you ever seen a fight where some game bastard climbs all over the better skilled fighter, smothers and frustrates him? It stops the better skilled fighter doing what he wants to do and brings him down a level.

Happens quite a lot, often the game bastard loses eventualy, sometimes he gets the moral victory if not the win itself. Tough bastards of even the lowest level often can really maul inside and are hard to tag on the way in.

Marciano is that game bastard only he has two handed power and proven at ATG level. Being a game bastard is only the least of what Rocky is. IMO even that side of Marciano takes a lot of what sonny is away.

All I am saying is Marciano was awkward to fight and a great fighter. He was hard to hit and is a match for Liston because he is so awkward, fearless and proven.

I also find it refreshing that this fantasy match up is closer this time around.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by choklab

I have threadbare logic because Larry Holmes says Liston (who he never met) was the best jabber in history?

This is one example. The point is that Liston is regarded as having one of the best jabs in history, has a foot-and-a-half reach advantage and you are saying that Rocky will slip 90% of these jabs and counter all of them. That is beyond preposterous, sorry.

Did or did not Muhammad ali say a middle age Rocky Marciano was hard to hit with a jab?
Liston had a great HARD jab. Ali had a faster more accurate jab than Liston.
If Ali (who not only met Marciano but did friendly sparring with Marciano) who as you say yourself repeatedly countered Liston says Rocky is hard to hit with the jab why is it thread bare logic to agree? If Ali had trouble jabbing Marciano anybody would have trouble jabbing Rocky. This would include Liston.
　

...if I understand you correctly, you are now saying that Liston will miss with 9/10 jabs and get countered on 10/10 jabs becuase an inactive Ali who sparred with an ancient Rocky for a fantasy computer fight said so?

Even if Ali said that he was at 100% for that spar, and if he said that Rocky was the hardest fighter he had ever met to hit a jab with and if we had some weird reason to believe him the type of analysis you are pedalling would STILL be nonsense. You're talking shite. Total, unadulterated shite. It's a perfect storm of shite. The fighter you came to the forum to undermine - by you own admission - versus your favourite at HW. There's a shite whirlpool in this thread and you're right in the middle of it. Shovelling shite.
　

The type of numbers you are rambling about don't exist at a high level, never mind the highest level. You are trying to inflict them upon one of the best jabs in the division's history on behalf of a punching swarmer. It's beyond ridiculous.

[lufcrazy]

The way I see this fight is Liston can pound Rocky behind the jab if he wants, and even in the trenches he'll destroy Rocky punch for punch. He's too big.

p4p Rocky is a better fighter but considering the 2 stone weight advantage Rocky is just in a bad fight for him.

[RockyJim]

It comes down to a question of heart...and who had a bigger heart then Marciano???