Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

[BillB]

Marciano (in retirement) said that Liston was the one fighter he wouldn't want to get in the ring with.

I've seen that quote several times- couldn't find it but it's out there.

Rocky wasn't just being humble. He didn't mind a bit saying he could have beaten Ali, Patterson and Johansson.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by BillB

Marciano (in retirement) said that Liston was the one fighter he wouldn't want to get in the ring with.

I've seen that quote several times- couldn't find it but it's out there.

Rocky wasn't just being humble. He didn't mind a bit saying he could have beaten Ali, Patterson and Johansson.

Funny cos I heard that Liston was having lunch with an older Marciano and told Rocky he'd beat him if they fought and Rocky challenged him to spar which he declined.

As for the fight, very hard to gauge how it would play out.

How is Rocky gonna handle Liston's jab?

Can Rocky take Liston's power?

Can Liston take Marciano's?

Is Rocky gonna be able to get on the inside?

Is Liston gonna being to lose confidence or tire from Marciano's workrate?

I'm seriously torn, if Marciano has success nuetralizing Liston's jab and has success getting on the inside I believe he could take it, if he can't Liston wins.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

There's a shite whirlpool in this thread and you're right in the middle of it. Shovelling shite.
.

I see you are into the christian spirit of sunday once more...

[choklab]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

The way I see this fight is Liston can pound Rocky behind the jab if he wants, and even in the trenches he'll destroy Rocky punch for punch. He's too big.

.

I could agree if sonny was a dance master and rocky was easy to hit with the jab and only a moderatly strong swarmer with no real punch but Rocky was very strong, hard to hit with a jab and had two handed power. size wise Liston is still shorter and lighter than old joe louis, even if sonny is younger and more dangerous the size is not a problem in itself for rocky. Even so at least in title fights old joe Louis would stay in a fight when the going got tough...

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by choklab

I see you are into the christian spirit of sunday once more...

The years upon years that statistics have been recorded for jabs landed: no fighter with even a decent jab has come to the kind of pathetic punch stats you are talking about. Can you show any here? 10% connect rate for someone like Oscar, Mayweather, Holmes, Lopez anyone? Can you show us a round on film where a fighter with even a top class jab misses as much as you are pretending Liston would miss here?

Then, can you show any film where a fighter that actually faces Marciano throws 10 jabs for every 1 they land?

Even if you could do this (and you can't) you would still have a shitload of work to do to back up the fantasy you are pedalling.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by choklab

I could agree if sonny was a dance master

that's right. Because when a fighter is 20lbs bigger the way for him to impose himself is to "be a dance master". Honestly, I don't know what planet you are posting from but the whisky seems to be good.

[groove]

i dont know why ali is being mentioned in this thread unless rocky is gonna dance and circle liston in order to win lol - ali fought outside, rocky fights inside (with his reach disadvantage he won't score on the outside). liston wont lose heart when rocky's eating his punches. he only lacked heart when he was hitting thin air v ali.

[lufcrazy]

Liston would have to be a dance master to outjab Rocky? Choklab, you're crazy.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Liston would have to be a dance master to outjab Rocky? Choklab, you're crazy.

Liston walked you down with the jab. He hurt you on the way in with it then he was within punching range. Thats ok against a conventional stand up boxer but Marciano was unconventional. When did Liston keep a guy "away" with the jab? It was not a "keep you away" jab. Joe Louis also had a great walk you down jab but it wasnt much use against Arturo Godoy or Tony Galento. Both strong crouching maulers. Likewise Liston vs marciano IMO.

Liston would use his jab but since it was not as fast as Ali's (because it was a diferent type of jab) would'nt he have less sucsess with the jab than Ali says he had with Rocky? IMO I think Liston would use his jab less because he would strugle to find the room and land cleanly with it..

[KidDynamite]

Marciano came straight forward and Liston would punish him for that.

It gets stopped in the later rounds due to Marciano being cut prone.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by groove

i dont know why ali is being mentioned in this thread unless rocky is gonna dance and circle liston in order to win lol - ali fought outside, rocky fights inside (with his reach disadvantage he won't score on the outside). liston wont lose heart when rocky's eating his punches. he only lacked heart when he was hitting thin air v ali.

Wouldn’t Liston lose heart if he was smothered and mauled inside. A facefull of elbows, heads and shoulders?
Marciano cant score on the outside. He never did. Is Liston keeping Rocky on the outside? If Sonny does he will be using a style alien to him and we would be presuming something we never saw Liston do - that’s as ridiculous as (lol) Rocky dancing and circling...

[BillB]

If Marciano could stay on the inside without getting killed getting there, he can win. Marciano working on a man's gut, will bring anybody down. I don't care who it is.

Eating Liston's jabs will bring anybody down.

I think the fight is a coin toss. If they fought 10 times, it may wind up 5-5.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by choklab

Liston walked you down with the jab. He hurt you on the way in with it then he was within punching range. Thats ok against a conventional stand up boxer but Marciano was unconventional. When did Liston keep a guy "away" with the jab? It was not a "keep you away" jab. Joe Louis also had a great walk you down jab but it wasnt much use against Arturo Godoy or Tony Galento. Both strong crouching maulers. Likewise Liston vs marciano IMO.

Liston would use his jab but since it was not as fast as Ali's (because it was a diferent type of jab) would'nt he have less sucsess with the jab than Ali says he had with Rocky? IMO I think Liston would use his jab less because he would strugle to find the room and land cleanly with it..

He'd pound Rocky with the jab and once in range he'd pound him with hooks.

Rocky can't beat him outside and I don't fancy him to win the exchanges inside.

Rocky might outlast him in a finish fight but he certainly won't win enough rounds in a 15 round fight. I see no way for him other than to outlast Sonny.

[KidDynamite]

Originally Posted by choklab

Wouldn’t Liston lose heart if he was smothered and mauled inside. A facefull of elbows, heads and shoulders?
Marciano cant score on the outside. He never did. Is Liston keeping Rocky on the outside? If Sonny does he will be using a style alien to him and we would be presuming something we never saw Liston do - that’s as ridiculous as (lol) Rocky dancing and circling...

Liston wasn't that bad on the inside himself ... Patterson found that out the hard way

Marciano never beats Liston just like he would never beat Foreman ... just a bad matchup

Liston wins 100% of the time

[choklab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Can you show us a round on film where a fighter with even a top class jab misses as much as you are pretending Liston would miss here?
Then, can you show any film where a fighter that actually faces Marciano throws 10 jabs for every 1 they land?.

What fighter would persevere with the forth consecutive jab when the last 3 missed? Because I have boxed I can tell you its unlikely to happen and that this example is not one I used or need to find on film just to amuse you.
If a fighter cannot risk the chance of a jab not landing as cleanly as he wants it to he throws less of them. If a punch wont work the way he wants he will try another punch more often. In other words he is forced to adapt. If that means his jab is less effective or neutralised it is the same thing. Forget about the percentage I used for the sake of example, it boils down to this. Some fighters are hard to hit with a jab. Marciano was one of them. If lots of people talk about Marciano having to take a pounding coming in from a punch that was hard to hit him with anyway I will assume its effectiveness is reduced considerably.
　
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

Even if you could do this (and you can't) you would still have a shitload of work to do to back up the fantasy you are pedalling.

Ok. Answer me this, how effective and evident was Joe Louis’s excellent “walk you down” jab against Arturo Godoy the first time they fought?