Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

[choklab]

Originally Posted by KidDynamite

Liston wasn't that bad on the inside himself ... Patterson found that out the hard way

Marciano never beats Liston just like he would never beat Foreman ... just a bad matchup

Liston wins 100% of the time

Ok, thats a fair assesment and you are entitled to it. Patterson was no where near as effective inside as marciano though was he? or as durable? or as strong? I cant prove it, just saying...

[he grant]

Originally Posted by choklab

Wouldn’t Liston lose heart if he was smothered and mauled inside. A facefull of elbows, heads and shoulders?
Marciano cant score on the outside. He never did. Is Liston keeping Rocky on the outside? If Sonny does he will be using a style alien to him and we would be presuming something we never saw Liston do - that’s as ridiculous as (lol) Rocky dancing and circling...

Sonny had a killer jab, cross and hook ... Rocky would have to get past that and a gigantic reach disadvantage to get inside when Snyy, much bigger and stronger with a thirty pound of muscle advantage could slam him with murderous body shots .. I just don't see it ..

[choklab]

Originally Posted by he grant

sonny had a killer jab, cross and hook ... Rocky would have to get past that and a gigantic reach disadvantage to get inside when snyy, much bigger and stronger with a thirty pound of muscle advantage could slam him with murderous body shots .. I just don't see it ..

30 pound???

[choklab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Even if you could do this (and you can't) you would still have a shitload of work to do to back up the fantasy you are pedalling.

Ok, Answer me this, How effective was Joe Louis's great "walk you down jab" against Arturo Godoy the first time they fought?

I would like you to adress this.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by choklab

What fighter would persevere with the forth consecutive jab when the last 3 missed?

Are you kidding? Every single fighter I can think of. I can't think of a single fighter who would miss three jabs then give up on the jab. The jab is the punch you throw. If the action brings the fighters closer then he might not use the jab, but chosing not to throw the jab because you've msised the jab? Doesn't happen.

Because I have boxed I can tell you its unlikely to happen and that this example is not one I used or need to find on film just to amuse you.

OK, well maybe you didn't box at quite the same level as these fighters? Examples of fighters missing with the jab and continuing to throw it are so available on YT that it is impossible NOT to find one.

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=WEYK2i2lOOs&feature=relmfu[/ame]

Above is Oscar-Floyd. Oscar misses with the first three jabs he throws and persists with it, using it to dominate the first half of the fight.

If a fighter cannot risk the chance of a jab not landing as cleanly as he wants it to he throws less of them.

And yet Walcott, Moore and Charles all continued to throw jabs at Marciano and to score with them. Most of these men are outreached by Liston in terms of 6 or 8 inches.

If a punch wont work the way he wants he will try another punch more often.

You are presuming plenty here. First that Marciano can make Liston miss loads with the jab. Second, that even though a connect % for a good jab can be as low as 30%, meaning his missing 7/10 jabs is completely normal. So even if Rocky turns out to be as good as Ali in slipping the Liston jab - highly, highly debatable, arguably ridiculous - Liston will continue to throw jabs as he did in that fight.

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=lp0RdiW8-bQ&feature=relmfu[/ame]

Above is Liston-Ali. Listin misses jab after jab after jab, a % of as close to zero as you will ever see in a fight with two world-class jabbers. He hardly lands one. Still, he persists with it.

Even in the situation you bizarrely invisage, Liston will continue to throw the jab. We know because we have proof of it on film.

Whatever your own extensive experience as a boxer tells you.

Forget about the percentage I used for the sake of example

I'm tyring, believe me.

it boils down to this. Some fighters are hard to hit with a jab. Marciano was one of them.

Not really. He was harder to hit with the jab than your common garden fan believe i think, but he is not a fighter that was incredibly difficult to tag with that punch, like Ali or Armstrong was.

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=KeGFJI_ctVE[/ame]

Above is round one of Charles-Maricano I. Charles throws 8 jabs, and lands either 6 or 7 of them. He's landing at a rate better than 80%. This is absolutely enormous.

Marciano did get harder to land the jab on as the fight progressed though. This was due to his exceptional engine and grit. But here he has an additional problem, one you seem absolutely determined to overlook, namely range.

The range is an additional ten inches. Take heed of the manuevers Rocky employs to close the distance. He would have to start those manueveres 10 inches further back. That's an horrific handicap, awful. No swarmer has ever overcome a handicap even rmotely like it. It's enormously difficult; an Everest of a problem. Liston has so much time to adjust to Rocky's moves, an extra half second in a sport where the fighters work in miliseconds.

It is a prohibitive physical disadvantage IMO.

If lots of people talk about Marciano having to take a pounding coming in from a punch that was hard to hit him with anyway I will assume its effectiveness is reduced considerably.

As we've seen, what you are assuming is contrary to what exists on film.
　
　

Ok. Answer me this, how effective and evident was Joe Louis’s excellent “walk you down” jab against Arturo Godoy the first time they fought?

It arguably won him a close fight. The mauling sections of the fight were about 50.50. Where Louis shaded this was when Godoy was on the outside wehre repeated feints helped to keep him at distance where he scored with flicking straights and the occasional right hand - Louis is always winning when it is on the outside.

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=OXfnKXS9Qt4[/ame]

As we can see above it is the only tool Louis has in keeping Godoy at range. Again and again he feints him back with it. In the first action you can see Louis land two jabs as Godoy bobs in.

God knows what havoc he would have wrought with it had he and extra 9 inches to work with. Certainly he would have had Godoy under much firmer control.

Regardless, Joe's eventual solution was the uppercut. Godoy had to take such pains to get inside that much shorter jab that he had to sell himself to that punch.

Against Liston, always ready with the upercut and quick to adjust, this is suicide.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by McGrain

The fighter you came to the forum to undermine - by you own admission - versus your favourite at HW. .

Is that actually true from Cleveland Williams biggest detractor? With no Liston agenda I do rate a prime Cleveland

[PowerPuncher]

What's this about Marciano getting Floyd Mayweather like defensive punch stats? I better change my all time list of P4P best defences:

1. Whitaker
2. Marciano
3. Pep
4. Gatti
5. Mayweather

OK now I know looking at it some may say I've got Whitaker a little too high but no I'm sticking with it

[McGrain]

Nice to see Gatti getting the nod, too.

Williams was an avoided puncher. He gets both over- and underated on the forum. He was a bit of a beast but he didn't tend to KO top line fighters, a bit like Ron Lyle, who also gets over- and underated.

[he grant]

Originally Posted by choklab

30 pound???

215 - 185 = ?

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Williams was an avoided puncher. He gets both over- and underated on the forum. He was a bit of a beast but he didn't tend to KO top line fighters, a bit like Ron Lyle, who also gets over- and underated.

I'd say on film his skillset looks several levels above Lyle, toughness wise perhaps not, more of a Shavers than a Lyle. One of the fastest left hooks in HW history too

Match making he was unforunate in my view. I see him knocking out Patterson and Ingo. I think his fast hands see him push Ali too. Unlucky for him he was in a HW murderer's row with Liston, Machen, Folley and ran into brick wall in Liston twice

Aside from Terrell he didn't put away top comp though granted and I could be blinded by eye candy but the question is why didn't more contenders fight him? Him and his managements fault or avoided? If I was some of those guys I wouldn't fancy fighting him

[SuzieQ49]

Mcgrain,

I actually thought the 6'2 214lb Joe Louis had more success with his jab against Marciano than any opponent did. Louis really marked up Marciano's eye. Liston was the same size as Louis, except younger, stronger, and fresher. He would land his jab a lot on the Rock.

[McGrain]

Yeah, I agree with you, I was actually leaving it in the hope that choklab would bring it up as an example of Rocky's defensive prowess

Never mind.

[SuzieQ49]

Mcgrain,

What makes you and I such big Liston fans? There is something about Liston I just love.

[Flea Man]

This would be an absolutely great fight until Liston gets Rocky'd measure and batters him in 9 or 10 rounds or Marciano grits his teeth, gets on Liston's chest and bullies him down the stretch.

I can't really pick. The reach disparity would be too much and I think The Rock would get too busted up trying to close the distance. He'd get his like in, but would get mangled and stopped due to cuts/damage.

Cop out answer but I just can't figure out what it would look like if it went to the championship rounds

[choklab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Liston will continue to throw the jab. We know because we have proof of it on film.
.

The example you use Liston continues to throw against a retreating opponent he cannot reach. It is not the same as continuing to throw it against a low crowding mauler who is restricting the space Liston needs to really use all that leverage the way he does best.

Originally Posted by McGrain

Not really. He was harder to hit with the jab than your common garden fan believe i think, but he is not a fighter that was incredibly difficult to tag with that punch, like Ali or Armstrong was..

Not impossible to reach with a jab at all just difficult to land cleanly against. I think you will agree a clean punch makes more impression than a grazing punch?

Originally Posted by McGrain

[URL="***********.youtube.com/watch?v=KeGFJI_ctVE"]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=KeGFJI_ctVE[/URL]
Above is round one of Charles-Marciano I. Charles throws 8 jabs, and lands either 6 or 7 of them. He's landing at a rate better than 80%. This is absolutely enormous.
Marciano did get harder to land the jab on as the fight progressed though. This was due to his exceptional engine and grit..

I disagree with this ratio. I think Charles was feinting jabs he turned into hooks most of the time. Charles extended his left to line up a right to the heart (that landed) but it was not a piston jab knocking Marciano’s head up at all. Charles did land 2 good clean jabs but the rest grazed Rocky if they landed at all. The punches Charles landed were shorter hooks and body shots that I think he threw more of anyway. Even though this was a round Charles won big he did not land the majority of the real jabs he threw IMO. But you are entitled to your take on the round.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

The range is an additional ten inches. Take heed of the manoeuvres Rocky employs to close the distance. He would have to start those manoeuvres 10 inches further back..

This is a good point. I feel though that because Liston advances he is not positioned the extra ten inches further away for any real amount of time, he is aiming quite low against a fighter used to sliding in underneath behind a shield of elbows and shoulders. I just don’t see the long shots counting as much as you do. It is an inside fight much like the first Joe Louis vs. Arturo Godoy fight was.
　
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

It arguably won him a close fight. The mauling sections of the fight were about 50.50. Where Louis shaded this was when Godoy was on the outside where repeated feints helped to keep him at distance where he scored with flicking straights and the occasional right hand - Louis is always winning when it is on the outside..

No it did not. Because Louis was unable to utilise the room to land his jab as well against more stand up fighters it totally evened up the fight. You can count on one hand how many clean super jabs (that Louis was famous for) that he landed in the 15 rounds! Usually Louis landed and threw more jabs in one round against almost anyone else than he did in 15 against gody. Why? Because Godoy was so god awful awkward but still inferior in every way to Marciano. Louis did adapt by their second match but he was a better fighter than Liston anyway.
　
　
　
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

[URL="***********.youtube.com/watch?v=OXfnKXS9Qt4"]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=OXfnKXS9Qt4[/URL]
As we can see above it is the only tool Louis has in keeping Godoy at range. Again and again he feints him back with it. In the first action you can see Louis land two jabs.

as Godoy bobs in.
But Louis is forced to adapt his jab into a range finder to work off, he begins to paw with it because there is no room and the height he needs to lower it to prevents the leverage he needs for it to be a big punch. Godoy reduces the Louis jab effectively.
　
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

God knows what havoc he would have wrought with it had he and extra 9 inches to work with. Certainly he would have had Godoy under much firmer control. .

Funnily enough I think Liston takes Godoy too but he is no Marciano.