Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

[Bill1234]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Why bill? Liston was better than Foreman

Styles. Foreman was more apt to go out and leave it all hang out in 5-6 rounds where as Liston paced himself more.

Foreman was stronger than Marciano and Liston imo and Foreman would use every bit of his strength to move Marciano back into a range where he could unload his big shots and force a stoppage. Unfortunately for guys who liked to move in low such as Frazier, Tyson, and Marciano, they would be litterally falling right into Foreman's hands and it would not end well for them.

Also, even Sonny had the harder jab, I think all around Foreman's was better. I don't have Liston's jab in the top 3 for an all around jab. Power wise, I do, but overall I do not.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Nonsense. Liston was a pitbull himself. Ali was a brass band. Show me a dog that's not afraid of a brass band i'll show you a deaf dog.

You guys have this all wrong. Liston had been facing down pitbulls all his life, all his adult life, before he was an adult even.

A switchblade clown is what brought the fear out in him, not a pit-bull.

Well, I don't think Sonny feared BIG Cat, especially after Bob Satterfield KO'd Big Cat in 3...so I really dont think Sonny faced too many dangerous guys...Marty Marshall was no real banger and not until Leotis Martin did he fight a guy that showed him balls to get off the deck and fight back...Sonny has the look,one of the best but for me he was lacking and when he KO'd the much dropped Patterson it was not a surprise and lets face it Floyd was like a deer in the headlights ...which are the wins that you feel were against the pit-bulls of his time

I see a bully much like Tyson,Foreman but Liston was probably the scariest looking of the 3 but I am not so impressed with who he beat.

[McGrain]

He beat armed policemen, prisoners, steet-hoodlums, a world heavyweight champion, top contenders so on and so forth. There is ONE occasion where he - arguably - was out-psyched or intimidated and that was against Ali -- not in the pitbull mould.

I say that Marciano is perfect for Liston from a psychological viewpoint. A tough bastard who wants to take his head off. Liston has been dealing with men like this since he was a child. He understands this. He has never been found wanting in this type of situation to our knowledge, in a life spent fighting in one way or another.

It's a huge leap to say Liston would be intimidated by a smaller man whose type he had been dealing with since his balls dropped.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by McGrain

He beat armed policemen, prisoners, steet-hoodlums, a world heavyweight champion, top contenders so on and so forth. There is ONE occasion where he - arguably - was out-psyched or intimidated and that was against Ali -- not in the pitbull mould.

I say that Marciano is perfect for Liston from a psychological viewpoint. A tough bastard who wants to take his head off. Liston has been dealing with men like this since he was a child. He understands this. He has never been found wanting in this type of situation to our knowledge, in a life spent fighting in one way or another.

It's a huge leap to say Liston would be intimidated by a smaller man whose type he had been dealing with since his balls dropped.

Thank you. The whole "bully the bully" tactic is being grossly overrated here, as it is too often with Tyson and even Foreman. Liston became the bully because he fought damn near every day of his life. Every bully falls sooner or later but not every chance another guy bows up.

But, then again, each of your posts I imagine in the voice of Sasha so I can not disagree.

[McGrain]

Sweet deal.

[SuzieQ49]

Well, I don't think Sonny feared BIG Cat, especially after Bob Satterfield KO'd Big Cat in 3

Williams was the most feared man of that era. Satterfield beat a 19 year old last minute substitute version of Williams in 1954. The prime 1960 grown man version of cleveland williams would have slaughtered any version of satterfield. Liston also took on the highly regarded punchers Mike DeJohn, and Nino Valdes.

[yancey]

Originally Posted by he grant

This thread is (always) hilarious ... in reality , no one but Bummy would put a nickel on Marciano if this could actually happen .. the rest know it's a mismatch.

[Jacquot]

Liston by KO

[Surf-Bat]

Originally Posted by McGrain

He beat armed policemen, prisoners, steet-hoodlums, a world heavyweight champion, top contenders so on and so forth. There is ONE occasion where he - arguably - was out-psyched or intimidated and that was against Ali -- not in the pitbull mould.

I say that Marciano is perfect for Liston from a psychological viewpoint. A tough bastard who wants to take his head off. Liston has been dealing with men like this since he was a child. He understands this. He has never been found wanting in this type of situation to our knowledge, in a life spent fighting in one way or another.

It's a huge leap to say Liston would be intimidated by a smaller man whose type he had been dealing with since his balls dropped.

A brilliant post

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Williams was the most feared man of that era. Satterfield beat a 19 year old last minute substitute version of Williams in 1954. The prime 1960 grown man version of cleveland williams would have slaughtered any version of satterfield. Liston also took on the highly regarded punchers Mike DeJohn, and Nino Valdes.

I dont know why he was so feared except for his excellent body, what was the win in between his loss to Satterfield and his loss to Liston that made Big Cat so feared.

Dejohn was also KO'd by Zora Folley and Eddie Machen in a 2 year period after the Liston KO of him.

Charlie Powell KO'd the 1959 version of Nino Valdes 5 months earlier than Liston

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by McGrain

He beat armed policemen, prisoners, steet-hoodlums, a world heavyweight champion, top contenders so on and so forth. There is ONE occasion where he - arguably - was out-psyched or intimidated and that was against Ali -- not in the pitbull mould.

I say that Marciano is perfect for Liston from a psychological viewpoint. A tough bastard who wants to take his head off. Liston has been dealing with men like this since he was a child. He understands this. He has never been found wanting in this type of situation to our knowledge, in a life spent fighting in one way or another.

It's a huge leap to say Liston would be intimidated by a smaller man whose type he had been dealing with since his balls dropped.

I think the size thing matter to you, the thing that would bother Sonny as it did with Tyson is fighting a man with no fear. The Ali fight was unique as you say but even though he was older I think when he dropped Leotis Martin and Martin got up and went at Sonny hard, Martin got the KO...I am not so sure Sonny fought so many that were not intimidated of him.

The Tyson comparison is when Holyfield who a few months later struggled to stop Bobby Cyz showed Tyson no fear and caused him to fizzle

I think fighting a man with true heart and no quit makes a difference...Ali showed it differently but he like Marciano had a unique quality....Heart and strength of mind.

I am not sold on Sonny by virtue of what I saw against that unique fighter with the extra heart and strength of mind.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

I think the size thing matter to you, the thing that would bother Sonny as it did with Tyson is fighting a man with no fear. The Ali fight was unique as you say but even though he was older I think when he dropped Leotis Martin and Martin got up and went at Sonny hard, Martin got the KO...I am not so sure Sonny fought so many that were not intimidated of him.

The Tyson comparison is when Holyfield who a few months later struggled to stop Bobby Cyz showed Tyson no fear and caused him to fizzle

I think fighting a man with true heart and no quit makes a difference...Ali showed it differently but he like Marciano had a unique quality....Heart and strength of mind.

I am not sold on Sonny by virtue of what I saw against that unique fighter with the extra heart and strength of mind.

Liston was impressive at a level but his performances against psyched out opponents has created a mystique that has overblown his standing in h2h ratings.

angelo dundee himself said (given that he was in besmanoffs corner when Liston beat him) that :“who did liston knock out? Al westphal that’s all. Cleveland Williams was on his feet and besmanoff was stopped on cuts. Forget Patterson - he was psyched out. Boxing beat liston. Boxing and cassius clay.”

Marciano was horrible to fight and more experienced than Liston. Sonny would be a hard opponent for Marciano too but it works both ways if both are prime. Once they both start swapping punches I think Marciano would win the exchanges, he was harder to hit with consecutive punches and also had a better chin.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

I think the size thing matter to you, the thing that would bother Sonny as it did with Tyson is fighting a man with no fear.

So your suposition is that in years of professional prize-fighting, prison-fighting, cop-baiting, muggings, collections, Liston never tangled with a man who did not fear him and won?

I say Patterson didn't fear him in 2, Williams didn't fear him in 1, Machen clearly didn't fear him, watch the fight, what evidence have you that Folley or Whitehurst seasoned professional heavyweight battlers, "feared" him? That they were scared? Why do you believe this?

And if you don't believe this (and it seems incredible that you would) where is the evidence that their not fearing him "bothered" Liston?

Sorry, but this is one of the most irritating and oft repeated cliches in boxing. What makes it true of Tyson?? Bruno was ready to kill him in that first fight, during their stare down it was Mike who looked uncomfortable, Frank looked like a stone-cold killer.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24cqVD4nVUs[/ame]

These are professional heavyweight champions, not small-beer local-tavern bullies. You need to rethink that Bummy. Repeating stuff like this is for children posting in General, not for seasoned Classic veterans.

The Tyson comparison is when Holyfield who a few months later struggled to stop Bobby Cyz showed Tyson no fear and caused him to fizzle

Tyson's career is a litany of boxing-corpses of men who "showed no fear". Please, this is ridiculous. Genuinely frightened - intimidated, I suppose that is what you are trying to say - prizefighters rarely win matches, regardless of the opposition.

I can't help but be disappointed by your post.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by choklab

Liston was impressive at a level but his performances against psyched out opponents has created a mystique that has overblown his standing in h2h ratings.

for Christ sake.

[Boxed Ears]

Liston was fifteen-twenty pounds heavier than Marciano and a couple inches taller. We're really talking about less than Holyfield/Bowe differences here. Perhaps Liston should win. If you put that much stock in it. I never saw H2H monster in Liston. I also never saw the super heavyweight that was supposedly hiding in the regular-sized heavyweight literal weight and literal height. I mean, granted, I know it's there. I know the fact that he's 6'5 and 240 pounds. But, I could never comprehend it, in the "metaphysical sense" that other posters seem to be able to. So, because Marciano never fought a decent guy who was metaphysically enormous, I give him very little chance of winning a metaphysical battle against Liston. A regular physical battle, I'd call it a tossup, really.