Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

[he grant]

This remains, time and again, one of the most ridiculous threads on this forum .. it really separates the Marciano fans from the nut huggers ... I love Sam Langford but I would never sit here and split pubic hairs trying tp make an argument that he could defeat a prime Ali because of the realization that styles make fights and under circumstances size does matter ... Marciano, with all respect in the world, was made for Liston and the only way a few try and justify a Marciano victory is either through distorted character assassination of Liston or bestowing super human powers of heart and character to Marciano .. it's a hoot to read , that's for sure ...

[SuzieQ49]

Originally Posted by he grant

Always good for a chuckle ..

So you think Sandy Saddler was better than Willie Pep?

[SuzieQ49]

Originally Posted by he grant

This remains, time and again, one of the most ridiculous threads on this forum .. it really separates the Marciano fans from the nut huggers ... I love Sam Langford but I would never sit here and split pubic hairs trying tp make an argument that he could defeat a prime Ali because of the realization that styles make fights and under circumstances size does matter ... Marciano, with all respect in the world, was made for Liston and the only way a few try and justify a Marciano victory is either through distorted character assassination of Liston or bestowing super human powers of heart and character to Marciano .. it's a hoot to read , that's for sure ...

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Surf-Bat

I think McGrain is pulling pretty far ahead here. Hard to beat the logic he's laying out.

It really is. He's broken apart both fighters quite nicely and has addressed just about everything that has been thrown his way. I like Rocky Marciano and for all we know, might give a good account of himself against Liston. But I just can't see him winning.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

It really is. He's broken apart both fighters quite nicely and has addressed just about everything that has been thrown his way. I like Rocky Marciano and for all we know, might give a good account of himself against Liston. But I just can't see him winning.

When I first came here I enjoyed these fantasy match ups.

The more of them I read the less meaningful they become.

No one knows who would have won these fights. It's pure speculation. There are too many unknowns and intangibles.

Who would have picked Clay over Liston in 1964? Nobody.

Who would have picked Buster Douglas over Tyson?

[SuzieQ49]

Sonny Liston by UNANIMOUS DECISION. A highly durable slugger beating a bigger stronger slugger who can be very methodical, and likes to sit back on his jab. This fight is going the distance.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by BillB

When I first came here I enjoyed these fantasy match ups.

The more of them I read the less meaningful they become.

No one knows who would have won these fights. It's pure speculation. There are too many unknowns and intangibles.

Who would have picked Clay over Liston in 1964? Nobody.

Who would have picked Buster Douglas over Tyson?

The only real arguments that I've heard in favor of Marciano ( or at least the ones that keep coming up ) are

" Rocky would force sonny to stop throwing the jab"

" Liston would fold under pressure as soon as someone stood up to him"

" an extra 30 lbs in weight and 17 inches in reach are irrelevant "

" Beating Floyd Patterson meant nothing, because Floyd was too terrified"



Now there may be some valid arguments which could give some REAL insight as to why Marciano should be favored, but I have yet to hear such perspectives.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

The only real arguments that I've heard in favor Marciano ( or at least the ones that keep coming up ) are

" Rocky would force sonny to stop throwing the jab"

" Liston would fold under pressure as soon as someone stood up to him"

" an extra 30 lbs in weight and 17 inches in reach are irrelevant "

" Beating Floyd Patterson meant nothing, because Floyd was too terrified"



Now there may be some valid arguments which could give some REAL insight as to why Marciano should be favored, but I have yet to hear such perspectives.

The same case could have been made for Liston vs Clay.
Other than the weight and reach advantage, it would have all lined up in that fight in favor of Liston.

How did it work out?

And you may be exactly right. Liston may have beaten Marciano. I honestly don't know but it would have been a great fight.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

In a sense you are right. What Liston has to do is considerably easier to see than what Rocky has to do. ..

Its only easy for Liston if he can get away with doing what he wants. My hunch (and it is only a hunch, after all neither of us can prove anything) is Liston will not be able to do what he wants all of the time. remember Harry greb? and since Rocky hits hard, well…accidents happen when you cant do what you want.

Originally Posted by McGrain

My refutation to your claim that "any fighter" and Liston specifically, would stop throwing the jab after missing with three jabs. On film we saw, Oscar miss Mayweather with jabs and continue you to jab, THEN Liston miss with multiple jabs and continue to jab.
Here, your point is refuted by film.
Your response: None..

A lie, my response was “The example you use Liston continues to throw against a retreating opponent he cannot reach. It is not the same as continuing to throw it against a low crowding mauler who is restricting the space Liston needs to really use all that leverage the way he does best.” a clear technical analysis -and I stand by it. In a normal situation fighters do not tend to fire consecutive treble jab combinations to the extent they usually do if they all miss. By jabs, I am not talking about feints.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

I also provided film of Charles hitting Liston with 7/8 lead left hands. Your response was to say that some of these punches did not land flush (True) but also that Charles "turned a lot of these jabs into lead hooks". Not actually true - Charles landed lead left hooks, but these were different punches to the ones that I counted.

I disagreed with that ratio, the number and the type of intentional jabs. You had to be counting feints. Marciano was not opened up with clean walk down jabs. It was not key to any success Charles had. Your point is Liston will pound Marciano with jabs then over power him inside. The Liston jab would be restricted in this fight.

Originally Posted by McGrain

Regardless, my question as to how this in any way helped your case (pointing out that Charles finding it EASIER to land HARDER PUNCHES TO LAND THAN THE JAB seemed to hurt you, I got no response..

I pointed out Charles’s hooks not you. You have an obsession with Liston needing to jab to win - when Marciano was easier to open up (from a feint) with a hook from closer in. It would take a faster more crafty ATG than the plodding and predictable Liston to do this IMO.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

I feel that the numerous number of left leads Charles managed to land on Marciano refutes your claim that he was some sort of specialist at sliding this punch.
Your response: None..

Well I am sure you do, at least you are man enough to admit these were not clean jabs from a faster puncher than Liston, but the point is it was evident that you miss counted the number of jabs Charles landed with. Marciano’s being difficult to hit with
the jab was mostly to do with him presenting less openings as he came in as it was to being any kind of deliberate specialist at sliding past the punch.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

This is an outright lie. I said that the Louis jab "likely won him the fight." It did. Almost every time Louis feinted Godoy back was with the jab. Most of the outpunches he scored with were jabs. Louis won the fight based upon his outboxing. In close, things were close to 50.50.
But did he out jab Godoy? Of course he fucking did! Count the jabs! Louis landed WAY more jabs than Godoy..

Was Louis’s jab restricted in this fight with Godoy?
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

And I never disputed this at any point. You seem confused, I suggest a re-read of that post..

I am confused as to why you think Joe Louis won the fight with the jab in a fight of few jabs? The fight is close mauling for the most part. Isn’t it more important than his jab not being as effective as usual. The point is it was not as effective and therefore Louis had a harder night than expected. Liston would have a harder night than
expected if his jab is not as effective. Joe Loiuswon that fight because Godoy did not do enough to take his title. The Joe Louis jab was reduced to a lighter weapon because ofGodoys tactics.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

You are using film of Godoy versus Louis to "prove" that Liston would beat Marciano. ..

No it was to show how a great jab can be neutralised using a similar style. Marciano would need more than neutralising the Liston jab. Godoy is a demonstration of another Charlie Goldman trained fighter.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

I have addressed it choklab. I've addressed it in detail. I showed Marciano, on film, being hit clean, repeatedly, with the jab (and as you pointed out lead left hooks) by a fighter that has a reach TEN INCHES SHORTER than Liston's. .

No you did not. There was no repeated jabs connecting cleanly. Charles used them sparingly because there was not the openings. Rocky forced him to fight close.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

notion of Liston becoming "frustrated with a tough little man who he cant catch clean on the way in" because like the MAJORITY of people on the forum, I don't think that will happen. .

It is a small majority not worthy of the outrage you seem to have for the opposite opinion from your own.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

Sheer fantasy. Crazy talk. Marciano, I would bet, has never, ever been in a world title fight where he was hit with 10% or less of the jabs that were thrown at him. Refuted by film, unaddressed by yourself..

Ok, the fact that Marciano opponents were restricted to throwing less jabs than normal kind of says something. This hang up you have about me using a percentage in a figure of speech kind of way is a tad petty. However I think Charles hit Rocky with about 3 of 11 jabs in that round and only one was correctly. Even trying to help you out, if I use round one of the Moore fight - Archie does land more jabs but he was wise to throw the kind of touch jab that would allow him chance to change direction - a far more sophisticated procedure than what Sonny would have attempted. A touch jab is not the kind of cruncher Liston went in for. The kind of devil may care all eggs in one basket job brings the entire body forward into closer range even if it lands. With all his reach Liston used his jab to fight with not to score. It lands then he fights. It doesn’t land he still fights. Fighting, exchanging blows at close quarters would even things up a lot against Marciano. Rocky has a chance in exchanges because of the unpredictable angles his punches landed from.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

Utter nonsense. Liston has one of the better HW jabs. Although you obviously won't see it that way, I’m sure even you will admit that it was a good one. .

Liston had a wonderful jab. The best and most destructive jab, a real battering ram but it is the kind of jab that is more effective against stand up boxers who are hoping to box Liston at mid range. Guys who want to jab with him or looking to time him from an upright stance. Against a low, smothering, elbow and shoulder stance is another matter.

Originally Posted by McGrain

above, you are saying that in spite of Marciano's 17" reach deficit, his going to counter EVERY JAB THAT LISTON THROWS??.

Not one bit. Marciano will get hit occasionally with the occasional jab Liston might get through .For the most part it is an inside fight where there is no jabbing room.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

My challenge to you now is to produce any Marciano fight - any one - that lasts more than a round where you can show him landing - let's say - 60% of the time when someone jabs at him. Keeping in mind that your original position is that he will land with 100% of his counters.

I suggest the lastarza fight. Lastarza does hit Rocky but usually pays for it when he tried the jab.
　

[choklab]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

The only real arguments that I've heard in favor of Marciano ( or at least the ones that keep coming up ) are
" Rocky would force sonny to stop throwing the jab"
" Liston would fold under pressure as soon as someone stood up to him"
" an extra 30 lbs in weight and 17 inches in reach are irrelevant "
" Beating Floyd Patterson meant nothing, because Floyd was too terrified"
Now there may be some valid arguments which could give some REAL insight as to why Marciano should be favored, but I have yet to hear such perspectives.

　
#1" Rocky would force sonny to stop throwing the jab"

Marciano would restrict the use of the Liston jab in the way another Charlie Goldman trained fighter Arturo Godoy managed to restrict the great jab of Joe Louis. The crowding presenting less openings and forcing Louis to try other things. Godoy did not win the fight but he made it close ….without Marciano type power.
Its not just the jab -its most of the outside punches. Rocky did get hit but it was inside where he opened up.
　
#2" Liston would fold under pressure as soon as someone stood up to him"

Other fighters stood up to Liston and got beat …..but they were not ATG fighters.
　
　
　
#3 "an extra 30 lbs in weight and 17 inches in reach are irrelevant "
　
Of course it is relevant, Marciano will have to be careful but he is the better mauler of the two. Harry Greb was said to be a magnificent mauling human windmill who could give away weight. So was Rocky but with two handed power. Liston was both shorter and lighter than Joe Louis, still a fair contender on a win streak when Rocky mauled him. The size advantage did not help Louis inside, a place where usualy older fighters fare better if they have the advantage.

#4" Beating Floyd Patterson meant nothing, because Floyd was too terrified"

Although not word for word, Angelo Dundee said something along those lines - he used the words psyched out” and was more than qualified to attest if Patterson was able to perform or do himself justice against Liston. He was packing a disguise in those fights - such was the strain he was under.
　

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Now there may be some valid arguments which could give some REAL insight as to why Marciano should be favored, but I have yet to hear such perspectives

other pointers…
"Marciano was the more proven inside fighter".
"Marciano had a better engine."
"Marciano could fight 15 rounds."
"Marciano has more pedigree in that he came from behind to win fights at elite level."

　

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by choklab

A lie, my response was “The example you use Liston continues to throw against a retreating opponent he cannot reach. It is not the same as continuing to throw it against a low crowding mauler who is restricting the space Liston needs to really use all that leverage the way he does best.” a clear technical analysis -and I stand by it. In a normal situation fighters do not tend to fire consecutive treble jab combinations to the extent they usually do if they all miss. By jabs, I am not talking about feints.

A technical analysis? It's not even a response? Your original position was that a fighter missing with three jabs abandons the jab. I prove that this is bullshit with film. You "reply" by describing why Ali making Liston miss with nearly every jab is not technically as bad as for Liston as Marciano, "a low crowding mauler" denying Liston "leverage". Even a non English speaker would consider this a non-answer.

So no, it was not a lie.

Furthermore you again, for the third time in the thread I think, neglect to deal with the most important phase. Over and over again you go striaght to Marciano "crawling all over" Liston like a spider. There's not a word about his inability to "crawl all over" Charles or any kind of effort to deal with the foot and half of space between them and what would be the most incredible performance in swarming history - crossing that space against one of the best punchers the division has produced.

　

I disagreed with that ratio, the number and the type of intentional jabs.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeGFJI_ctVE[/ame]

2:20. Flush jab. Easy land.

2:31. Marciano comes straight ahead. Charles pops out a range-finder. Easy land.

2:44. Jab to the neck. Rocky takes the sting out of it with a lean but it's an easy land.

(2:56. Lead left hook. Easy land)

2:58. Jab to the head. Marciano makes Charles miss.

3:01. Jab to the head. Marciano partially parries this and it lands on the top of the head rather than the face.

3:31. Jab to the gut.

3:46. Double jab. The first one is short the second one lands.

4:23. Range finder lands flush, to set up the right hand.

4:28. Flush jab on the chin. Marciano doesn't even move.

All this time, he is also landing straight rights without any real trouble, too.

What an incredible waste of my time.

You had to be counting feints.

No, I didn't count any feints. Nor did I count "left jabs that were turned into left hooks" which was your bizarre accusation the first time I produced this data.

Marciano was not opened up with clean walk down jabs.

I don't think any great fighter is, but I think Maricano is more open than you allow, and I think film shows it, and I think that's been demonstrated pretty clearly.

Your point is Liston will pound Marciano with jabs then over power him inside. The Liston jab would be restricted in this fight.

Even restricted it is liable to do damage and gather points. I personally think Liston will land at a good rate with an active, world class jab and a 17" reach advantage. Call me old fashioned.

I pointed out Charles’s hooks not you.

Yes. I know. That's what my posts says. I'm now pointing out to you how hurtful it is to point out that a man you are trying to pretend was a wizard at ditching the jab was easier to hit with lead left hooks. It's also totally inaccurate as this hardly happened. Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you?

You have an obsession with Liston needing to jab to win -

No, I don't. I just have to talk about it a lot because i've been drawn into an argument with someone who believe that someone with a world class jab and a seventeen inch reach advantage who liked to jab and committed to his jab wouldn't have his jab as a factor in the fight. That's outlandish to say the least, and is naturally going to be something of a sticking point.

　

at least you are man enough to admit these were not clean jabs from a faster puncher than Liston

Some of them were, some of them weren't, the same as in any other boxing match ever fought. Christ alive.

but the point is it was evident that you miss counted the number of jabs Charles landed with. Marciano’s being difficult to hit with

I've recounted them here with time-coding so you can check.

　

Was Louis’s jab restricted in this fight with Godoy?

Yes.

Are Joe Louis and Sonny Liston different fighters?

Did you know that JOe Louis has a TWO INCH REACH ADVANTAGE and that Liston would have A SEVENTEEN INCH ADVANTAGE IN REACH? Do you have any idea, as a former boxer, the difference that this makes in general strategy and timing? It's an absolutely enormous difference - it's fucking massive.
　

I am confused as to why you think Joe Louis won the fight with the jab in a fight of few jabs?

I'm confused about why you're confused given that i've explained it very clearly twice now.
　

　

No you did not. There was no repeated jabs connecting cleanly. Charles used them sparingly because there was not the openings. Rocky forced him to fight close.

There were a number of jabs, landed rather easily, at a HUGE connect %, rather than the laughable 10% connection rate you insisted upon.

"Marciano made 90% of jabs miss with all his opponents."

Fantasy.
　

It is a small majority not worthy of the outrage you seem to have for the opposite opinion from your own.

I've been as clear as I can possibly be that i'm not outraged by the opposite opinion, just a bit disturbed by the fantasy you personally are pedalling.

Although i've said it THREE FUCKING TIMES - like everything else i've said in this post - here it is again. I've no problem with Marciano as a pick (see any one of the three other posts i've made saying this, for reasons why).
　

Ok, the fact that Marciano opponents were restricted to throwing less jabs than normal kind of says something.

And what is this latest made up statistic based upon? How big is your sample for this statistic? How many fights do you have raw data for? Do the fighters throw "fewer jabs" throughout the fight, or just in the later rounds? By what percentage do the number of jabs opponents throw decrease?

This hang up you have about me using a percentage in a figure of speech kind of way is a tad petty.

but it is YOUR method of communicating. You were the first person in the thread to start throwing about percentages.

However I think Charles hit Rocky with about 3 of 11 jabs in that round and only one was correctly.

You are completely wrong. May I see your breakdown in time-code as the one I presented above? Thanks.

Even trying to help you out, if I use round one of the Moore fight - Archie does land more jabs but he was wise to throw the kind of touch jab that would allow him chance to change direction

Yes, a lot of fighters throw these punches in a fight they expect to win on points rather than by ko. Unfortunately for you they still count.

- a far more sophisticated procedure than what Sonny would have attempted.

Yes. He would have been STUPID AS FUCK to try to throw touch jabs with a SEVENTEEN INCH REACH ADVANTAGE

The kind of devil may care all eggs in one basket job brings the entire body forward into closer range even if it lands.

More made up pish.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWbpM99wD2M[/ame]

1:39. Liston lands the jab, then takes a step back.

2:18. Liston lands a jab and holds his position.

2:23 Liston throws a jab and holds his position.

Why do you do this to yourself? What you are saing is contradicted ON FILM. BY WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN REAL LIFE.

What you are describing is the jab Liston threw when he wanted to close the distance, which, as a puncher and stronger man he wanted to do often. He might do it against Rocky often. But you make Marciano out to be some sort of defensive specialist - and then make Liston out to be some sort of jabbing automation who falls in behind every jab. Why?

With all his reach Liston used his jab to fight with not to score.

He did what he felt was best at the time. As we've now seen, your summary of Liston's jab is innacurate and useless.

　

[McGrain]

Liston had a wonderful jab. The best and most destructive jab, a real battering ram but it is the kind of jab that is more effective against stand up boxers who are hoping to box Liston at mid range. Guys who want to jab with him or looking to time him from an upright stance. Against a low, smothering, elbow and shoulder stance is another matter.

Very good. This is the first time you have dealt directly with this problem. You have a very definite opinion which is easy to agree with or refute. Here is my question to you -

Upon which Liston performance is this opinion based?

Where, on film, can I see him struggling to land the jab on a low, smothering, elbow and shoulder stance?

Not one bit. Marciano will get hit occasionally with the occasional jab Liston might get through .For the most part it is an inside fight where there is no jabbing room.

　 I suggest the lastarza fight. Lastarza does hit Rocky but usually pays for it when he tried the jab.

OK. I fear this will be another enormous waste of my time, but I will play.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBgf4H2ybho[/ame]

.33 LaStraza throws a jab. Gets countered.

.37 LaStraza throws a jab. No counter.

.38 LaStaraza throws two jabs. Gets bulled to the ropes. No counter.

.46 LaStarza throws a jab. No counter.

.50 LaStarza throws two jabs. Is not directly countered but is bulled back to the ropes.

1.00 LaStaraza throws a jab. No counter.

1.03 LaStarza throws a jab. No counter.

1.04 LaStarza throws 3 jabs. Is not directly countered but gets bulled back to the ropes.

1:21 LaStarza throws a jab. Countered.

1:29 LaStarza throws a jab. No counter.

1:38 LaStarza throws a jab. No counter.

1:52 LaStarza throws a jab and lands two punches behind it.

1:57 Jab and right hand. No counter.


Is any of this doing anything for you? Are you beginning to understand why your claim that Marciano will counter almost every single Liston jab is so ridiculous? Do you see why someone making that, coupled with claiming a 90% slip rate across his career for Maricano as fact and a second cornerstone of reasoning for a Marciano win is so ridiculous?

[choklab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

2:20. Flush jab. Easy land.

Yes this one lands but charles has already missed 2 so hes landed 1 out of 3 so far and there is most of the round left to go.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

2:31. Marciano comes straight ahead. Charles pops out a range-finder. Easy land.

Not a scoring blow. Insufficient force.

Originally Posted by McGrain

2:44. Jab to the neck. Rocky takes the sting out of it with a lean but it's an easy land.

Im not sure of the contact. Wouldn’t score.
(

Originally Posted by McGrain

2:56. Lead left hook. Easy land)

This is a scoring blow. A beauty!
but not a jab.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

2:58. Jab to the head. Marciano makes Charles miss.

Agreed another miss.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

3:01. Jab to the head. Marciano partially parries this and it lands on the top of the head rather than the face.

Not a scoring punch, you are corect about contact but its nothing but a reactionary fending off with n open hand.
　

Originally Posted by McGrain

3:31. Jab to the gut.

Not that conclusive.

Originally Posted by McGrain

3:46. Double jab. The first one is short the second one lands.

out of range. No contact.

Originally Posted by McGrain

4:23. Range finder lands flush, to set up the right hand.

Not a jab. Charles touching with an extending open glove before taking aim with the right. Insufficient force.

Originally Posted by McGrain

4:28. Flush jab on the chin. Marciano doesn't even move.

Direct hit! Charles lands for the second time with a scorring jab.
Ratio: 2 of 12 moments were actual landing jabs that would score.

Nobody getting hit repeatedly with jabs what so ever. Even when you try to blind with science you cant be trusted.
[

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Well consider this. Your point is now:

To win, a fighter needs to be better than his opponent AND not be intimidated.

That's an almost a given (though there are exceptions...and we're indirectly dealing with one now). I'm going to try Bummy, one more time, to show you the poverty of your position and then give up. It's nothing personal.

Duran was intimidated and forced to quit by Sugar Ray Leoanrd. Two years later, shy of being out-boxed by Benitiez, he failed to deliver his best against a similar type and was beaten. Therefore I am picking Saddler to move up and beat him in the same way.

You think Duran poo'd himself? OK.

Willie Pep quit twice to Sandy Saddler. Saddler roughed him up and Pep couldn't handle it. Saddler was just too tough for Pep and Pep crumbled mentally. So I think that Rafael Marquez could move up and beat him mentally too.


It isn't often that a puncher is intimidated by a boxer, but it happened - maybe - when Liston met Ali. That doesn't mean that every time Liston meets someone who "isn't intimidated" fights him that they will beat him if they are talented. That's clearly nonsense. But most of all, the person you are picking to have this affect on Liston is the complete opposite of the one person in his career that may have made him feel this way. Liston being forced to quit by Ali may be related to a shoulder injury and a KO respectively (or mob fixes on both occasions) OR he may have dog quit, but if he did, he did it ONCE and to an opponent who represnts THE ABSOLUTE OPPOSITE OF WHAT MARICANO DOES FROM A PSYCHOLOGICAL POINT OF VIEW.

And it's nonsense on two levels. Because Ali, by his own admission was deeply intimidated the first time he fought Liston. All this bullshit about a guy not being intimidated by him is just that. He was intimidated. Deeply. And guess what? It counted for nothing on that rare occasion.

SO a guy who was intimidated COULD beat Liston. And a guy who WASN'T intimidated, might not - did not, on almost every occasion, because this idea that these professional HW's were all too terrified to fight him is just silly. Like Zora Folley is too frightened to fight Sonny Liston? No, no, no, these men deserve more respect than that.




It might be hard for you to predict, but in these instances, look what actually happened. Watch the Clark fight, watch the Machen fight, watch the Whitehurst fight, watch him fight. These guys aren't intimidated or terrified. They just get beat.



Well he was, if the stories repeated by various biographers are to be believed. Was I there? No. So I can't say it definitely happened. It's not that important though, my point is, and I have already stated it clearly, there is NO REASON TO BELIEVE that Liston was intimidated on any level by the "pit bull type" you (Accurately) depict Marciano to be. None.




Did he? And is there? You seem extremely confident. Note that of his three most serious biographers only ONE draws a direct conclusion concerning those losses and that conclusion was that Sonny DID NOT quit dog. Do I buy that? Not necessarily, and I don't think it matters, because your argument is not really valid even if he DID quit (like Langford, Frazier, Pep, or Duran), but you come to this argument with one of the most important points settled in a way that neither Mee, Tosches nor Steen, who have all written books on the man, could arrive at directly - that he had quit dog.

So you assume plenty here. Keep that in mind.

Mee, Tosches nor Steen, probably all 3 sit down to pee, and would all be in fear and awe of the Liston legend or they would not have had the fascination to write a book about the man, I would not expect them to say he quit when the going got tough. I am going by a lot of boxing insiders and old timers who have been around the ring and streets for a while and they say Sonny either quit or took a dive.

Liston looks great against Cleveland Williams and he looks great against Patterson but I myself are not sure how he would react to a great fighter who had heart and courage and the most power Liston ever faced.

For me their is a crack in Liston's armor...you say he did not quit against Ali but I wonder who did not come out of the corner for fight 1, and I guess you feel it was the Jack Johnson anchor punch that Ali landed in the 1st round in the rematch....I agree Ali had multiple 1st round KO's with that punch through-out his career and it caused Liston to roll around for 3 minutes.

I think Liston would be a hard fight for Marciano but I think Rocky's crouching style and awareness of the Liston jab and power makes Rocky a bit more cautious and careful but he comes on in the exchanges and gets to Liston on the inside with some good power punches and awkward combo's much like he did against Moore, and I do think Sonny feels power that he never felt before. Rocky could get dropped but I see him getting stronger as the fight goes on and tests Sonny in the stamina department and there will be a heart check...I can see Sonny going down and out with his face laying flush on the floor like he did vs 6'ft 198lb Leotis Martin.

Liston would be a dangerous fight (I would assume for anyone) but I think he would fall short against most of the very best. that is my opinion.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by choklab

Its only easy for Liston if he can get away with doing what he wants. My hunch (and it is only a hunch, after all neither of us can prove anything) is Liston will not be able to do what he wants all of the time. remember Harry greb? and since Rocky hits hard, well…accidents happen when you cant do what you want.

A lie, my response was “The example you use Liston continues to throw against a retreating opponent he cannot reach. It is not the same as continuing to throw it against a low crowding mauler who is restricting the space Liston needs to really use all that leverage the way he does best.” a clear technical analysis -and I stand by it. In a normal situation fighters do not tend to fire consecutive treble jab combinations to the extent they usually do if they all miss. By jabs, I am not talking about feints.
　
I disagreed with that ratio, the number and the type of intentional jabs. You had to be counting feints. Marciano was not opened up with clean walk down jabs. It was not key to any success Charles had. Your point is Liston will pound Marciano with jabs then over power him inside. The Liston jab would be restricted in this fight.

I pointed out Charles’s hooks not you. You have an obsession with Liston needing to jab to win - when Marciano was easier to open up (from a feint) with a hook from closer in. It would take a faster more crafty ATG than the plodding and predictable Liston to do this IMO.
　
Well I am sure you do, at least you are man enough to admit these were not clean jabs from a faster puncher than Liston, but the point is it was evident that you miss counted the number of jabs Charles landed with. Marciano’s being difficult to hit with
the jab was mostly to do with him presenting less openings as he came in as it was to being any kind of deliberate specialist at sliding past the punch.
　

Was Louis’s jab restricted in this fight with Godoy?
　
I am confused as to why you think Joe Louis won the fight with the jab in a fight of few jabs? The fight is close mauling for the most part. Isn’t it more important than his jab not being as effective as usual. The point is it was not as effective and therefore Louis had a harder night than expected. Liston would have a harder night than
expected if his jab is not as effective. Joe Loiuswon that fight because Godoy did not do enough to take his title. The Joe Louis jab was reduced to a lighter weapon because ofGodoys tactics.
　
No it was to show how a great jab can be neutralised using a similar style. Marciano would need more than neutralising the Liston jab. Godoy is a demonstration of another Charlie Goldman trained fighter.
　
No you did not. There was no repeated jabs connecting cleanly. Charles used them sparingly because there was not the openings. Rocky forced him to fight close.
　
It is a small majority not worthy of the outrage you seem to have for the opposite opinion from your own.
　
Ok, the fact that Marciano opponents were restricted to throwing less jabs than normal kind of says something. This hang up you have about me using a percentage in a figure of speech kind of way is a tad petty. However I think Charles hit Rocky with about 3 of 11 jabs in that round and only one was correctly. Even trying to help you out, if I use round one of the Moore fight - Archie does land more jabs but he was wise to throw the kind of touch jab that would allow him chance to change direction - a far more sophisticated procedure than what Sonny would have attempted. A touch jab is not the kind of cruncher Liston went in for. The kind of devil may care all eggs in one basket job brings the entire body forward into closer range even if it lands. With all his reach Liston used his jab to fight with not to score. It lands then he fights. It doesn’t land he still fights. Fighting, exchanging blows at close quarters would even things up a lot against Marciano. Rocky has a chance in exchanges because of the unpredictable angles his punches landed from.
　
Liston had a wonderful jab. The best and most destructive jab, a real battering ram but it is the kind of jab that is more effective against stand up boxers who are hoping to box Liston at mid range. Guys who want to jab with him or looking to time him from an upright stance. Against a low, smothering, elbow and shoulder stance is another matter.

Not one bit. Marciano will get hit occasionally with the occasional jab Liston might get through .For the most part it is an inside fight where there is no jabbing room.
　 I suggest the lastarza fight. Lastarza does hit Rocky but usually pays for it when he tried the jab.
　

good post, i don't know where you get the energy