Gerry Cooney - the hardest puncher ever?

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

For anyone, surely. There is no "hardest puncher ever," or at least no way to quantify it. Odd question, really.

Agreed,

and frankly while I do believe Cooney to be a man who could hit like a truck, there needs to be more verification than knockouts over Leroy Boone, an old Norton, a shot lyle, or a cut stoppage against an aging Young.. These were absolutely devastating wins no doubt, but what we really needed to see was an emphatic KO or stoppage of a durable prime fighter like Tex Cobb or Trevor Berbick. And 24 knockouts isn't a lot of time spent in the ring either. George Foreman and Earnie Shavers both fought until they were old men and stopped well over 60 men a piece, plus had testimonies from people as being some of the hardest punchers they've ever faced.. That's the kind of stuff you need to make these judgements.

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Agreed,

and frankly while I do believe Cooney to be a man who could hit like a truck, there needs to be more verification than knockouts over Leroy Boone, an old Norton, a shot lyle, or a cut stoppage against an aging Young.. These were absolutely devastating wins no doubt, but what we really needed to see was an emphatic KO or stoppage of a durable prime fighter like Tex Cobb or Trevor Berbick. And 24 knockouts isn't a lot of time spent in the ring either. George Foreman and Earnie Shavers both fought until they were old men and stopped well over 60 men a piece, plus had testimonies from people as being some of the hardest punchers they've ever faced.. That's the kind of stuff you need to make these judgements.

Young isn't evidence at all,...he was past it and bleeding like a stuck hog and was NEVER FAZED by any of Cooney's shots.

[MAG1965]

I thought his power was what we all thought, but his skill level was overrated a bit.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Agreed,

and frankly while I do believe Cooney to be a man who could hit like a truck, there needs to be more verification than knockouts over Leroy Boone, an old Norton, a shot lyle, or a cut stoppage against an aging Young.. These were absolutely devastating wins no doubt, but what we really needed to see was an emphatic KO or stoppage of a durable prime fighter like Tex Cobb or Trevor Berbick. And 24 knockouts isn't a lot of time spent in the ring either. George Foreman and Earnie Shavers both fought until they were old men and stopped well over 60 men a piece, plus had testimonies from people as being some of the hardest punchers they've ever faced.. That's the kind of stuff you need to make these judgements.

What durable prime fighters did Shavers ever KO?

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

What durable prime fighters did Shavers ever KO?

Roy Williams, Joe Bugner and Henry Clark is a good place to start.. Okay, well some of those weren't prime...But I won't base my argument on those wins.. I think the real key here is that he had the testimonies of Larry Holmes and Jimmy Young ( both of whom faced Cooney ) as being the hardest puncher they ever fought. Muhammad Ali had a lot to say about Shaver's power too. Does any of this mean that Shavers hit harder than Cooney? No. But my point is that there is certainly more to go by than Cooney knocking out a journeyman with a body shot on youtube.

[clinikill]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Roy Williams, Joe Bugner and Henry Clark is a good place to start.. Okay, well some of those weren't prime...But I won't base my argument on those wins.. I think the real key here is that he had the testimonies of Larry Holmes and Jimmy Young ( both of whom faced Cooney ) as being the hardest puncher they ever fought. Muhammad Ali had a lot to say about Shaver's power too. Does any of this mean that Shavers hit harder than Cooney? No. But my point is that there is certainly more to go by than Cooney knocking out a journeyman with a body shot on youtube.

In an interview, Bugner said that Cooney was the most powerful puncher he ever faced (Cooney sparred with Bugner in preparation for his fight with Holmes). Lyle said the same thing after his fight with Gerry, but later retracted and said Shavers was the hardest puncher.

Bugner's comment: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by clinikill

In an interview, Bugner said that Cooney was the most powerful puncher he ever faced (Cooney sparred with Bugner in preparation for his fight with Holmes). Lyle said the same thing after his fight with Gerry, but later retracted and said Shavers was the hardest puncher.

Bugner's comment: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Well Shavers recanting his comment and Bugner sparring Cooney with head gear on, certainly doesn't bode for an argument in favor of Gerry.

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Their common opponents in Norton and (to a much lesser extent) Lyle.

Norton was completely finished when he met Cooney whilst his shavers loss was not long after a gallant losing effort to Holmes. Not that im saying he wasnt slipping as fighters 'go' overnight in this game.

Lyle was touching 40 when he fought Cooney, he lost to earnie inbetween the ali and foreman fights when he was clearly still a force as such.

Im not necessarily saying Shavers is a bigger hitter than Cooney or vice-versa, im just puzzled as to your reasoning behind your claim

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Roy Williams, Joe Bugner and Henry Clark is a good place to start.. Okay, well some of those weren't prime...But I won't base my argument on those wins.. I think the real key here is that he had the testimonies of Larry Holmes and Jimmy Young ( both of whom faced Cooney ) as being the hardest puncher they ever fought. Muhammad Ali had a lot to say about Shaver's power too. Does any of this mean that Shavers hit harder than Cooney? No. But my point is that there is certainly more to go by than Cooney knocking out a journeyman with a body shot on youtube.

Sure, Williams, Bugner and Clark might be a good place to start, but to go where? Who else did he stop? What prime durable fighters? It just seems pretty unfair for you to expect Cooney to have KOed Cobb to be able to prove his punching credentials, when Cobb was uniformly regarded as having one of the hardest chins ever, something which has never been said of the above three fighters. What comparable fighter to Cobb (chin-wise) did Shavers ever stop? He never fought Chuvalo, who was the nearest possible candidate, and he failed to stop Cobb himself despite Cobb being about as open as a barn door. How are his credentials any more proven?

Cooney did a lot more than just knock out a journeyman with a bodyshot on youtube. He destroyed Norton, he destroyed Lyle, he brutally stopped a number of fighters in ways that left me in no doubt that he was a hellacious puncher. As for fighter testimonies, well, Cooney has plenty of those himself if you care to check the rest of the thread. Foreman considered him the hardest puncher he'd ever fought, as did Holmes and Lyle.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

Norton was completely finished when he met Cooney whilst his shavers loss was not long after a gallant losing effort to Holmes. Not that im saying he wasnt slipping as fighters 'go' overnight in this game.

Lyle was touching 40 when he fought Cooney, he lost to earnie inbetween the ali and foreman fights when he was clearly still a force as such.

Im not necessarily saying Shavers is a bigger hitter than Cooney or vice-versa, im just puzzled as to your reasoning behind your claim

Ali was also completely finished when he fought, and beat, Shavers. So what good is his testimony?

As for Norton, it was only two fights between Shavers and Cooney, and Norton didn't exactly shine in that time (he got a SD with Cobb for Christ's sake!). You could argue that Norton got old overnight from the Shavers fight, but you can't categorically state it. For all we know Shavers simply happened to get to a diminished Norton first.

You're right though. Norton was completely finished after Cooney got through with him!

BTW, Lyle never lost to Shavers.

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Ali was also completely finished when he fought, and beat, Shavers. So what good is his testimony?

As for Norton, it was only two fights between Shavers and Cooney, and Norton didn't exactly shine in that time (he got a SD with Cobb for Christ's sake!). You could argue that Norton got old overnight from the Shavers fight, but you can't categorically state it. For all we know Shavers simply happened to get to a diminished Norton first.

You're right though. Norton was completely finished after Cooney got through with him!

BTW, Lyle never lost to Shavers.

ha ha! thats what i get for trying to type fast and not checking my reply before i post. Of course your right Lyle beat earnie, i meant to say he fought him between M.A. and G.F. My point was that Shavers fought a better version of lyle than Cooney.

That aside, i still fail to see what your basing your argument on.

Oh and BTW, i never mentioned Ali saying anything about anyone


EDIT. Ive just re-read your reply post and most of it seems to be a reply to things that i never stated one way or another.

I never mentioned anything specific about when Norton 'went', in fact i think i just stated he was coming of a gallant losing effort to Holmes. I never said he 'was gone' immediately before the cooney fight, i never said anything one way or another. In fact i specifically said 'not that im saying he wasnt slipping', so not only do i fail to see where you base your argument on (not that im saying your wrong, you may well be right) but i also fail to see what the points you make in your reply, have got to do with what i posted?

Or maybe we just have our wires crossed

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Sure, Williams, Bugner and Clark might be a good place to start, but to go where? Who else did he stop? What prime durable fighters? It just seems pretty unfair for you to expect Cooney to have KOed Cobb to be able to prove his punching credentials, when Cobb was uniformly regarded as having one of the hardest chins ever, something which has never been said of the above three fighters. What comparable fighter to Cobb (chin-wise) did Shavers ever stop? He never fought Chuvalo, who was the nearest possible candidate, and he failed to stop Cobb himself despite Cobb being about as open as a barn door. How are his credentials any more proven?

Cooney did a lot more than just knock out a journeyman with a bodyshot on youtube. He destroyed Norton, he destroyed Lyle, he brutally stopped a number of fighters in ways that left me in no doubt that he was a hellacious puncher. As for fighter testimonies, well, Cooney has plenty of those himself if you care to check the rest of the thread. Foreman considered him the hardest puncher he'd ever fought, as did Holmes and Lyle.

You make some valid points, but as I also stated in my prior post, I did not base my comparison soley on the wins that Shavers had nor even Cooney's. But the testimonies of all time great fighters who were known for their durability among other things.. Cooney beating the piss out of Norton and Lyle when they were both pushing 40 and in the last fights of their careers meant nothing.. Shavers dispatched Norton in nearly the same amount of time, only he did it a full two years earlier when Ken still had a tiny bit left in the tank. And one other thing.. I'm pretty sure that Holmes said that SHAVERS was the hardest man he'd ever been hit by... Not Cooney.. Young said the same thing.. Both men fought Cooney and Shavers and agreed that the Acorn hit them the hardest.

Now to be clear, I am not favoring one man over the other. I am only using Shavers as one man to compare Cooney to. But I agree that Gerry could crack harder than most.. My point is that there simply isn't enough evidence to crown him as boxing's hardest puncher..

[Rico Spadafora]

I am not sure Cooney's power was ever the same after he tore his shoulder before the Holmes fight. Either way he wasn't the hardest puncher ever. He also has to get 'set' to throw his hook against a moving fighter like Holmes kept him from landing flush. He could hook under and over with accuracy which many fighters could not do. When was the last time we saw a Heavyweight KOing people with body shots as much as Cooney did? It has been a while.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

ha ha! thats what i get for trying to type fast and not checking my reply before i post. Of course your right Lyle beat earnie, i meant to say he fought him between M.A. and G.F. My point was that Shavers fought a better version of lyle than Cooney.

That aside, i still fail to see what your basing your argument on.

Oh and BTW, i never mentioned Ali saying anything about anyone


EDIT. Ive just re-read your reply post and most of it seems to be a reply to things that i never stated one way or another.

I never mentioned anything specific about when Norton 'went', in fact i think i just stated he was coming of a gallant losing effort to Holmes. I never said he 'was gone' immediately before the cooney fight, i never said anything one way or another. In fact i specifically said 'not that im saying he wasnt slipping', so not only do i fail to see where you base your argument on (not that im saying your wrong, you may well be right) but i also fail to see what the points you make in your reply, have got to do with what i posted?

Or maybe we just have our wires crossed

My point was that Shavers also fought a badly faded version of a fighter in Ali, but for some reason this always seems to be glossed over whilst with fighters like Cooney or Tyson it's used to downplay their achievements.

I won't argue that Norton was past his best when Cooney got to him, but it still doesn't take away from the evident power Cooney displayed in that fight. If you're discussing who'd win at their best, then such things as primes come into the equation. When talking about punching power, I don't think it matters as much. If you're getting punched so hard you lose consciousness then things like whether you were prime or past prime or ringrusty or whatever are irrelevant.

Shavers fought a better version of Lyle but he also failed to knock him out. I don't see how that works in his favour, yet you'll constantly hear it being brought up. Ditto the Holmes knockdown.

I also don't consider his TKO of Norton as devastating as Cooney's demolition job. He was hitting him with a lot more shots and had to knock him down three times to get the stoppage.

Once again I'm not debating who beat the better version of Norton at the time, I'm debating who knocked him out worse, and to me the obvious answer is Cooney.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

You make some valid points, but as I also stated in my prior post, I did not base my comparison soley on the wins that Shavers had nor even Cooney's. But the testimonies of all time great fighters who were known for their durability among other things.. Cooney beating the piss out of Norton and Lyle when they were both pushing 40 and in the last fights of their careers meant nothing.. Shavers dispatched Norton in nearly the same amount of time, only he did it a full two years earlier when Ken still had a tiny bit left in the tank. And one other thing.. I'm pretty sure that Holmes said that SHAVERS was the hardest man he'd ever been hit by... Not Cooney.. Young said the same thing.. Both men fought Cooney and Shavers and agreed that the Acorn hit them the hardest.

Now to be clear, I am not favoring one man over the other. I am only using Shavers as one man to compare Cooney to. But I agree that Gerry could crack harder than most.. My point is that there simply isn't enough evidence to crown him as boxing's hardest puncher..

I never stated that I thought Cooney was the hardest puncher ever, I just said he had a better claim to that title than Shavers.

But like I said, once you get to that level it all becomes rather interchangeable.